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Article on human endurance

TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,174
edited June 2019 in Pro race
I found this vaguely interesting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48527798

Sort of implies a cyclist is better off turning up with a bit of fat at the start of a GT.

Posts

  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,216
    Seems like a lot of balooney...
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 7,107
    Just need to train your BMR then?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 10,973
    Something is dodgy in that report. One marathon is 15.6x, so @ 30,000 calories?
    Written by a runner?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 2,007
    pblakeney wrote:
    Something is dodgy in that report. One marathon is 15.6x, so @ 30,000 calories?
    Written by a runner?

    change marathon for a one off enormous event like an ultra Ironman or something, less the more marathons you do, the tour is consequtive blasting days and peaking on mountain stages so less and the daily trudge to the pole is even less.

    There are no new revelations here but it was an interesting summary. I’d like to see the whole paper. The link between sustainable repeatable extreme daily efforts and nutrition seems obvious to anyone but for food scientists the opportunity is to identify methods to make food absorption better.

    Nice IV bag of performance anyone? Perhaps blood bags add more than just oxygen carrying potential.
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,040
    pblakeney wrote:
    Something is dodgy in that report. One marathon is 15.6x, so @ 30,000 calories?
    Written by a runner?
    Presumably it's only 15.6x for the duration of the run? I.e. about 4500 calories depending on how fast you are. Seems more reasonable to me.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 10,973
    edited June 2019
    Double post.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 10,973
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    pblakeney wrote:
    Something is dodgy in that report. One marathon is 15.6x, so @ 30,000 calories?
    Written by a runner?
    Presumably it's only 15.6x for the duration of the run? I.e. about 4500 calories depending on how fast you are. Seems more reasonable to me.
    Makes more sense. Burn brighter, but shorter.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,174
    .. the opportunity is to identify methods to make food absorption better.

    This was my other thought. Presumably the body can absorb different foods at different rates, so this could be optimised.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,503 Lives Here
    TheBigBean wrote:
    .. the opportunity is to identify methods to make food absorption better.

    This was my other thought. Presumably the body can absorb different foods at different rates, so this could be optimised.

    This pretty much is what gel makers have been doing for a while - adding certain amounts of protein to improve absorption.

    Ultimately I think the next area of athletic improvement is examining the gut and what diets improve its efficiency.
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    I read that a couple of days ago. Makes perfect sense to if you think about it.

    I'm sure there will continue to be progress in terms of optimising and possibly personalising nutrition for individual athletes / particular events.

    More intriguing is the prospect of manipulating the gut microbiome to improve the efficiency of digestion and nutrient release / uptake. Maybe even improve tolerance to stress.

    Once you've done all that and reached the physiological limit of nutrient absorbtion via the gut, the only way I can see of getting more into the body is intravenously, transdermally or possibly via inhalation. None of those sound particularly nice, but I'm sure it will be happening
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 2,417
    TheBigBean wrote:
    .. the opportunity is to identify methods to make food absorption better.

    This was my other thought. Presumably the body can absorb different foods at different rates, so this could be optimised.

    This pretty much is what gel makers have been doing for a while - adding certain amounts of protein to improve absorption.

    Ultimately I think the next area of athletic improvement is examining the gut and what diets improve its efficiency.

    I think it was David Epstein's book that had a section about the mind blocking the body from reaching its full potential. It sounds like that could be really big if someone could develop a way to overcome it.

    He gave the example of someone getting an electric shock and been thrown across a room. It's actually the persons own body that throws them across the room. But in normal circumstances, the body wouldn't be allowed to put out that much force
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,149
    TheBigBean wrote:
    I found this vaguely interesting

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48527798

    Sort of implies a cyclist is better off turning up with a bit of fat at the start of a GT.

    Applicants that tended to do well on SF selection started off with a bit of timber. The racing snakes run out of reserves as the process goes through the weeks and months.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,416
    gsk82 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    .. the opportunity is to identify methods to make food absorption better.

    This was my other thought. Presumably the body can absorb different foods at different rates, so this could be optimised.

    This pretty much is what gel makers have been doing for a while - adding certain amounts of protein to improve absorption.

    Ultimately I think the next area of athletic improvement is examining the gut and what diets improve its efficiency.

    I think it was David Epstein's book that had a section about the mind blocking the body from reaching its full potential. It sounds like that could be really big if someone could develop a way to overcome it.

    He gave the example of someone getting an electric shock and been thrown across a room. It's actually the persons own body that throws them across the room. But in normal circumstances, the body wouldn't be allowed to put out that much force

    Expect Team Ineos are already doing this, I bet if the Dawg was tasered he wouldn't budge an inch!
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,416
    A few years back Ketones were all the buzz with regards Sky.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 8,888
    gsk82 wrote:
    I think it was David Epstein's book that had a section about the mind blocking the body from reaching its full potential. It sounds like that could be really big if someone could develop a way to overcome it.

    He gave the example of someone getting an electric shock and been thrown across a room. It's actually the persons own body that throws them across the room. But in normal circumstances, the body wouldn't be allowed to put out that much force

    That's a really interesting thought.
    and then the next thing you know
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,574
    gsk82 wrote:
    I think it was David Epstein's book that had a section about the mind blocking the body from reaching its full potential. It sounds like that could be really big if someone could develop a way to overcome it.

    He gave the example of someone getting an electric shock and been thrown across a room. It's actually the persons own body that throws them across the room. But in normal circumstances, the body wouldn't be allowed to put out that much force

    That's a really interesting thought.

    Is it Tim Noakes wrote about the central limiter theory - basically similar to modern vehicles that have a rev limiter to prevent them damaging the engine.

    While since I read it but I seem to remember him arguing hard short intervals could reset the limiter slightly higher. It's also quite motivational to tell yourself it's your mind telling to stop - suppose it's just like Jens Voigt saying "shut up legs".
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • mididoctorsmididoctors Posts: 7,107
    Dieting is the new black anyway .. nutrition has been growing in importance for a while now.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 9,464
    Hold on, in the Giro Breakaway thing with Orla, Wiggins et al they were discussing rest days and one of the things that came up was to make sure you were not over-eating, which seemed to be about not gaining weight.

    It's still possible to make a case for not over-eating wrt this paper, but that would be based more around not bloating on a load of food you weren't able to assimilate anyway.

    Just as an aside, it's widely recognised that mental health and gut health are strongly linked. The enteric nervous system has 100m neurons, more than the spinal cord. It's possible that focus on psychological health could be a physical marginal gain for food absorption.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 8,040
    Hold on, in the Giro Breakaway thing with Orla, Wiggins et al they were discussing rest days and one of the things that came up was to make sure you were not over-eating, which seemed to be about not gaining weight.

    It's still possible to make a case for not over-eating wrt this paper, but that would be based more around not bloating on a load of food you weren't able to assimilate anyway.

    Just as an aside, it's widely recognised that mental health and gut health are strongly linked. The enteric nervous system has 100m neurons, more than the spinal cord. It's possible that focus on psychological health could be a physical marginal gain for food absorption.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
    Is that not just because you can only digest so many calories in a day? So if you overeat on the rest day you're going to feel terrible the next day.
  • photonic69photonic69 Posts: 993
    If you want to know about sports nutrition specifically for cyclists then look no further than the work of Prof James Morton from John Moore's University. His specialist field is nutrition and how the body absorbs the food you eat. He was also Sky's head of nutrition.

    Here are a few clips of his research

    https://www.sport2health.com/professor-james-morton/
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 9,464
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Hold on, in the Giro Breakaway thing with Orla, Wiggins et al they were discussing rest days and one of the things that came up was to make sure you were not over-eating, which seemed to be about not gaining weight.

    It's still possible to make a case for not over-eating wrt this paper, but that would be based more around not bloating on a load of food you weren't able to assimilate anyway.

    Just as an aside, it's widely recognised that mental health and gut health are strongly linked. The enteric nervous system has 100m neurons, more than the spinal cord. It's possible that focus on psychological health could be a physical marginal gain for food absorption.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
    Is that not just because you can only digest so many calories in a day? So if you overeat on the rest day you're going to feel terrible the next day.

    Ahem.... :wink:

    It wasn't what the actual cyclists were saying though. Obviously, cyclists may not actually have the best idea of exactly why they're doing something, probably because they spend the majority of their time cycling, sleeping, or being transported somewhere to cycle.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
  • webboowebboo Posts: 2,120
    bobmcstuff wrote:
    Hold on, in the Giro Breakaway thing with Orla, Wiggins et al they were discussing rest days and one of the things that came up was to make sure you were not over-eating, which seemed to be about not gaining weight.

    It's still possible to make a case for not over-eating wrt this paper, but that would be based more around not bloating on a load of food you weren't able to assimilate anyway.

    Just as an aside, it's widely recognised that mental health and gut health are strongly linked. The enteric nervous system has 100m neurons, more than the spinal cord. It's possible that focus on psychological health could be a physical marginal gain for food absorption.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases ... connection
    Is that not just because you can only digest so many calories in a day? So if you overeat on the rest day you're going to feel terrible the next day.
    Wiggins talked about this when commenting on the Giro. He said the long slow stages with a sprint at the end were better than a rest day, as you could eat normally( as in normally for a racing day) and you wouldn’t over eat and feel sluggish the next day.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,174
    It wasn't what the actual cyclists were saying though. Obviously, cyclists may not actually have the best idea of exactly why they're doing something, probably because they spend the majority of their time cycling, sleeping, or being transported somewhere to cycle.

    This is the problem with sportsmen/sportswomen as pundits. No better example of this than pretty much every football pundit.
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,340
    A bit more detail than the BBC report;

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2397917/human-endurance-limit-study

    In summary; it’s not quite as simple as the headline.
  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 9,174
    A bit more detail than the BBC report;

    https://www.outsideonline.com/2397917/human-endurance-limit-study

    In summary; it’s not quite as simple as the headline.

    Thanks for posting that. An interesting read.
  • ProssPross Posts: 22,093
    Good read that, so in summary it's possible that those who do well in long-term endurance events like a GT are those able to process more calories than the 'limit of endurance' number the study came up with?
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 9,464
    Pross wrote:
    Good read that, so in summary it's possible that those who do well in long-term endurance events like a GT are those able to process more calories than the 'limit of endurance' number the study came up with?

    It would certainly be an advantage, yes. But if I understood correctly, the limit was expressed as a multiple of resting calorie burn for the athlete. If energy use during exercise isn't a function of energy use at rest then that could be significant as well.

    It was interesting that there was only speculation about what the limiting factor might be - whether gut absorption, something behavioural/mental or even liver function.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

    @DrHeadgear

    The Vikings are coming!
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