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Lance Armstrong

surfercyclistsurfercyclist Posts: 891
edited June 2019 in Road general
Not sure where to post this so it's here. Slightly misleading headline(who'd have thought) but interesting article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/48393491
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Posts

  • david7mdavid7m Posts: 636
    Poor message - do something illegal, then learn afterwards when caught ?
  • surfercyclistsurfercyclist Posts: 891
    Yeah hindsight is always better. What he did was unforgiveable BUT I also think he's been castigated way more than other drug cheats. Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,687
    I call bullshit on the quote below. He was far from “begging for it” he deliberately ruined those who called him out on it. And that is the difference between him and the others.
    "I don't get investigated and sanctioned if I don't act the way I acted. If I just doped and didn't say a thing, none of that would have happened. None of it. I was begging for, I was asking for them to come after me. It was an easy target."
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • StillGoingStillGoing Posts: 5,207
    Yeah hindsight is always better. What he did was unforgiveable BUT I also think he's been castigated way more than other drug cheats. Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.

    I'd agree, but for the damage he did to the lives of other people who refused to follow his doping regime or attempted to expose him.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,575
    As others have already pointed out in this thread - and in numerous places in these fora and the wider www - the castigation of Lance Armstrong hangs mainly on the fact that he ruined (or tried to ruin - don't mess with Betsy Andreu) anyone who wouldn't toe his line.

    Saying all of this, 2019 Lance Armstrong seems to genuinely be a much better person than the Lance Armstrong from a decade or so ago. His podcast, The Forward (and Stages - the TdF-specific podcast in July), is great and he pulls some really top guests.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • shirley_bassoshirley_basso Posts: 3,227
    He is a sociopath. I believe the expression is 'controlling the narrative'
  • bradsbeardbradsbeard Posts: 210
    Viva le Lance!!
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,575
    Big fan, eh?
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
    Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
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  • surfercyclistsurfercyclist Posts: 891
    I second that about his podcast, Stages The Move etc really good and interesting stuff. His co-host JB is a bit of a dullard but Armstrong and also George Hincapie very good.
  • mouthmouth Posts: 1,196
    Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.

    I'm in favour of life bans for repeat offenders, but people often make mistakes or are easily misled at particular points of their career. I think theres a place for SOME lenience.
    The only disability in life is a poor attitude.
  • surfercyclistsurfercyclist Posts: 891
    mouth wrote:
    Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.

    I'm in favour of life bans for repeat offenders, but people often make mistakes or are easily misled at particular points of their career. I think theres a place for SOME lenience.

    Maybe 20 years ago or so but nowadays no excuse. If an athlete now doesn't know the rules and consequences then they are too stupid to be competing.
  • navrig2navrig2 Posts: 1,558
    mouth wrote:
    Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.

    I'm in favour of life bans for repeat offenders, but people often make mistakes or are easily misled at particular points of their career. I think theres a place for SOME lenience.

    Maybe 20 years ago or so but nowadays no excuse. If an athlete now doesn't know the rules and consequences then they are too stupid to be competing.

    It's a difficult call if someone is genuinely caught out by something over the counter. The case of the skiier Alain Baxter was a case in point.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Baxter#Urine_tests

    However Armstrong was a cheat of inordinate scale and deserves more than he got. He should not have any of the wealth gained during his time in the saddle no matter how it was earned.
  • We've all met people like Armstrong somewhere along the line. Ambitious, ruthless, very close to being sociopaths. They either don't see or don't care what impact their actions have on others. I honestly think if they drove a person to suicide they'd only ponder what harm it could do to them. We all know to be the best it takes an obsessive approach. When I read what Chris Hoy ate I marvelled at his willpower and commitment. There was no place in his diet for sauces, butter, anything that made food taste so much better. Of course that ( sacrifice ) is just one aspect of what it takes to be a champion. Hard work and talent among other attributes being in the mix.

    But when you've done all that and still lost, accept it. Don't think you have a right, an entitlement to success. The next guy along will be doing the same. Don't make the decision that you deserve glory more than anyone else and cheating is acceptable. And certainly when caught, don't despise the whistleblower and try to destroy them. Armstrong heaped disgrace upon disgrace. One of the worst role models and "champions" I've witnessed in modern times.
  • kingstongrahamkingstongraham Posts: 11,389
    mouth wrote:
    Anyone caught cheating through drugs etc should be life banned, no exceptions. It really gets to me that some get a 2 year ban then are allowed to return and compete. This happens in a lot of sports and is a disgrace.

    I'm in favour of life bans for repeat offenders, but people often make mistakes or are easily misled at particular points of their career. I think theres a place for SOME lenience.

    Maybe 20 years ago or so but nowadays no excuse. If an athlete now doesn't know the rules and consequences then they are too stupid to be competing.

    Be a bit tough on Simon Yates, that.
  • I wouldn't change a thing about doping

    Im not surprised, he made $millions$ and lived like a rock star. Like most other white collar crimes.
    "The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,091
    My understanding is that blood doping became a big thing in the peloton in the early 90s and within a couple of years they were ALL at it, that is before his days.
    Armstrong is no different, he just had a better system in place to avoid been caught. Unlike others, he did have a hell of a lot to lose (money above all) to confess once his career was over, so he didn't. Others could come clean and write a book about it, so actually make money out of confessing. He had already 6 or 7 biographies on the shelves.

    Not sure how many in his position would have come clean... not sure how many in his position would have attempted to race clean and have a lacklustre career at the back of the peloton in minor races.

    I think there is a lot of bigotry and idealism from people who have never had the dilemma of whether to succeed by cheating or not
  • navrig2navrig2 Posts: 1,558

    I think there is a lot of bigotry and idealism from people who have never had the dilemma of whether to succeed by cheating or not

    I think it's more of a lack of real appreciation of the pressures the top riders were under at the time.

    I have more of an issue with Armstrong's bullying tactics adopted to avoid being caught and get his team involved (thus making it harder to whistleblow). He was clearly a very talented rider with fantastic focus on training and determination to win. Where would he have been in a totally clean field? Probably in the top levels.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,091
    navrig2 wrote:
    He was clearly a very talented rider with fantastic focus on training and determination to win. Where would he have been in a totally clean field? Probably in the top levels.

    Probably at the top... don't think he had Lemond's phenomenal talent though. Had he not pelleted by a shotgun, Lemond would have easily won 5 Tours and he was a more complete package.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,666
    My understanding is that blood doping became a big thing in the peloton in the early 90s and within a couple of years they were ALL at it, that is before his days.
    Armstrong is no different, he just had a better system in place to avoid been caught. Unlike others, he did have a hell of a lot to lose (money above all) to confess once his career was over, so he didn't. Others could come clean and write a book about it, so actually make money out of confessing. He had already 6 or 7 biographies on the shelves.

    Not sure how many in his position would have come clean... not sure how many in his position would have attempted to race clean and have a lacklustre career at the back of the peloton in minor races.

    I think there is a lot of bigotry and idealism from people who have never had the dilemma of whether to succeed by cheating or not

    This completely avoids Armstrong's willingness to use his vast wealth and profile to destroy the lives and reputations of anyone who stood in his way or threatened to expose him. It's not bigotry or idealism to remind the fanboys about that side of him.
  • isotonikisotonik Posts: 50
    When ever lance comes up I always get the impression people were not too fussed about him cheating and would give him some slack, however the way in which he went after and destroyed the lives of the people who spoke out against him does'nt do him any favours.

    My own view on Lance is that nobody can deny the good he did for the sport at his peak, he must of helped sell tens of thousands of bikes... people would walk into bike shops and ask for a Lance Armstrong bike.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,091
    isotonik wrote:
    however the way in which he went after and destroyed the lives of the people who spoke out against him does'nt do him any favours.

    M

    Wouldn't you do the same? I mean the guy is ruthless, but under the circumstances, who wouldn't be?
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,666
    isotonik wrote:
    however the way in which he went after and destroyed the lives of the people who spoke out against him does'nt do him any favours.

    M

    Wouldn't you do the same? I mean the guy is ruthless, but under the circumstances, who wouldn't be?

    How about the overwhelming majority of elite athletes who didn't (and still don't) ??
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,091
    shortfall wrote:

    How about the overwhelming majority of elite athletes who didn't (and still don't) ??

    They probably don't have a 100 million dollar empire to lose, dozens of lawsuits waiting, people with jobs that depend upon them and so on... it's lonely at the top (not that I have been there).

    What did David Millar experience in comparison? A short ban followed by a new contract and a couple of book deals?
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,687
    Still missing the point that out of all the cyclists caught (and the many more who got away with it), none of the accused did anything like LA.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,666
    edited May 2019
    shortfall wrote:

    How about the overwhelming majority of elite athletes who didn't (and still don't) ??

    They probably don't have a 100 million dollar empire to lose, dozens of lawsuits waiting, people with jobs that depend upon them and so on... it's lonely at the top (not that I have been there).

    What did David Millar experience in comparison? A short ban followed by a new contract and a couple of book deals?

    David Millar was a cheat, got caught, got punished and showed some repentance. You're still in denial about the extent of Lance's bullying and malign influence, so much so that you come across as an apologist. Elite sport is full of multi millionaires with huge fortunes and reputations at stake, you could even make a case that Lance is small fry compared to some footballers, baseball and basketball players and golfers, but in any case we're not talking about the amount of money they have or their future earnings it's whether they're actually wicked. Many of them will be cheats and unpleasant people, most of them however haven't (so far as we know) gone to great lengths to ruin the lives of other people, drag them through the courts and destroy their livelihoods and reputations for trying to expose a lie. The way I'm interpreting your line of reasoning is that YOU would do the same as Lance. Am I right to think that?
  • meursaultmeursault Posts: 1,476
    It's time (Long overdue) to forgive Armstrong.

    1. He won those tours when he was the best. He didn't get off the sofa, take EPO then win tours.
    2. Getting some kind of edge, has always been there in the history of the sport. We can argue to what degree, and what breaks or doesn't break the rules, are we going to rescind every tour winner?
    3. Elite athletes are not employing the same moral playing field as us mere mortals. We can't imagine the pressures or psychology involved.
    4. If doping makes good racing, I'm watchin' it.
    5. He's not a nice person? Irrelevant to sporting achievement.
    6. To err is human, to forgive is divine. Give yourself a break, let it go, move on.

    :wink: (Emoji disclaimer for the trolls)
    Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.

    Voltaire
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 12,687
    All of the above is fine and is applied to the others.
    He gets special treatment because he dished out special treatment. That is the part that won’t be forgiven. Ever.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,666
    pblakeney wrote:
    All of the above is fine and is applied to the others.
    He gets special treatment because he dished out special treatment. That is the part that won’t be forgiven. Ever.

    Quite. To paraphrase the man himself, you could even say that being extraordinarily wicked requires extraordinary penitence. He hasn't shown much so far as I can make out.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 25,091
    shortfall wrote:
    The way I'm interpreting your line of reasoning is that YOU would do the same as Lance. Am I right to think that?

    Hard to say, but I would certainly fight allegations, if they mean the end for me
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,666
    shortfall wrote:
    The way I'm interpreting your line of reasoning is that YOU would do the same as Lance. Am I right to think that?

    Hard to say, but I would certainly fight allegations, if they mean the end for me

    Would you fight allegations against you that you knew to be true and see good people ruined in the process? Cos that's what he did. Over and over. I hope you wouldn't.
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