EBike or regular

Maxdown

Got back into riding after a while out and promised myself a quality full sus build this time. I started looking at regular bikes but every shop I’ve been in now has a fleet of ebikes and no interest in selling anything but.

I’m pretty sure there is a divided opinion with many saying ebikes are cheating yada yada but have now booked a demo day on regular full sus and ebike. I just want to ride trails and enjoy downhills not grind massive climbs so the idea of an ebike is starting to appeal.

What is people’s experience, anyone got one and how does it work with other non ebike riders? Do I get kicked out the forum for even mentioning this.....

compuwiz_uk

got a regular full sus bike myself ( bought it before ebikes became more popular & my commute to work was less hilly )

loved it to bits the few times i rode it ( its currently ill as its brake levers have seized up - good ol' Sram guides - hope to get out on it again when it has its shiney new shimano brakes are fitted soon )

but for the last year & a bit i have been eyeing up a full sus ebike or at least a hard tail ebike - hard tail for regular commute duties as like mentioned, its a much longer & far more hilly commute than it used to be since the place i worked at changed locations - oddly, it seems to be hills in both bleeding directions, still trying to figure that out as the downhills never seem to be as long going down em as they are slogging up em :? - a full sus ebike would become dual use, ie commuter at the start of the week when i really dont want to start work again or when the wind picks up so i have electrical backup to get me through the headwinds ( again, i am lucky enough that the wind ruddy changes direction on me during the day so its headwinds to work & headwinds home too ) & a days off machine when the weekend finally arrives.

Had my eye on the Voodoo Zobop E full sus since it came out but alas, 2 price hikes later ( started out @ £2700, then went to £3000 when halfords had a SALE on :roll: , now its @ £3500 ) & the fact it seems like halfords are dropping it completely have put that idea out to pasture

i do keep looking at ebikes ( spent at least 3 hours yesterday drooling over one or 2 per website i frequented while hunting out a set of shimano brakes for the poorly bike i have at the mo ) but alas i fear i will have to make do with my fleet of non electric bikes that i have at the moment instead & just fitten up the hard way ( spent all winter fattening up in the car for the commute so its gunna kill me when i finally get back on the bike again

steve_sordy

Apologies, this is a long one!

I have ridden mtb clockwork bikes for years. When the eBikes started to appear, I was intrigued. But I didn't want one, not even a little bit. Not even after watching in amazement as a guy stormed up the hill on the Llandegla black trail that I had just pushed up. It turns out that he WAS cheating because he proudly told us that he had chipped the bike so it would do 30 mph. To be legal in Europe (ie the UK too), the pedal assist has to cut out at 25kph which is 15.7mph. Despite that, I was never critical of eBikes, only the riders. And then I was only critical of the riders because many seemed to lack any trail etiquette at all. (Yelling for room and shouting Strava as they zoomed past on the climb, stealing the best line etc.) But they probably always were an arse, even before they got the eBike!

But then the knee problems slowly started to get a grip of me. It took four years of deterioration but eventually I was down to a maximum ride of 10 miles and mostly on my own because I hated being the guy at the back that everyone was waiting for. And even that required me to have at least two days off between rides! Physio, painkillers, KT tape, joint supplements....I've tried them all and still using most of them. My YT Capra was not being used (only 600 miles in three years!), so I sold it and bought an emtb. I took a while, tried lots of different bikes and chose them so I could test a range of different motors. The motors make a massive difference. They have different peak torque figures and deliver it in different ways too. As the cut off speed arrives, the power fades in different ways too. Some motors are an absolute pig to ride after the cut off speed, or with the motor off because you have to pedal through the motor. Other motors either disconnect from the crank or have a different level of drag. The controls are different too, and I'm not talking brake and shifter levers. Some have five power levels and some have three, I never rode one with four that I recall. The power shifter can be some sort of rocker switch or Di2 levers. I never got on with the rocker type as when going over rough trail I could never control how many times the rocker was pushed. I once ended up in turbo coming into a bend and spun out. I also inadvertently switched the power off too, which is a disconcerting feeling. I very much preferred the Di2 lever set up as I knew for certain how many times I'd shifted and in which direction, but some find them clumsy and feel that they clutter the bar.

The other key parameter is battery size and location. The battery can be clamped onto a normal looking frame, pretty much like a wart. Or it can be semi-integrated into the frame. Or it can be completely inside the frame. The batteries can be easy to remove with a few quick release fastenings, or screwed in, or even not designed to be removed at all. Bikes with non-removable batteries tend to be lighter as the bike frame does not have to be compromised quite so much to allow for removal. But if you can only charge your battery indoors, then you have to be able to take your bike indoors too, which is not always possible, or convenient. The battery size (energy, not dimensions) is expressed in watt-hours (whr) and there is huge variation in that. The smallest I know about is on an eZesty at 250whr. The largest is well over 1000, maybe up to 1200 whr on the latest Haibike Enduro. The most common is 504whr. The more Whr, the larger the range. But range will depend upon the weight of you and bike combined, the hills you climb, the tyres and pressures, the trails you ride, and finally how hard you want to work (or not). Ride in turbo all the time and you won’t get as far. Batteries are heavy and big batteries heavier still. You may think that weight doesn’t matter because you have a motor, but the motor doesn’t help you when you have to lift the bike over a stile or a gate, or you have to put the bike on the roof rack at the end of the day when you have a knackered shoulder from that off you had an hour ago.

All power systems are adjustable to some degree with an app linked by blue-tooth to your phone so that you can have all settings at max or dial them all the way back for max range. Some are extremely tech friendly, allowing you for example, to set up the bike so that your heartbeat never goes above a certain figure. The bike automatically adjusts the boost level to keep your heart rate steady (how flash is that!). Specialized appear to be the most advanced in this area, but there is a lot of variety out there. You really need to decide what you want, but few bike brands can compete with Specialized in this area, so you can end up choosing a bike by the electronics it has and not its performance on the trail.

Once I started testing emtbs, I quickly decided that I was going to get one, but which one? :?:

At the start I wasn't sure what I looking for in an emtb, so I kept trying different ones until I started to notice differences. By differences, I mean more than the usual things when testing regular bikes. I was looking for how quickly the power came on when pressing the pedal, how the power was delivered, was it smooth or was there any pulsing? What happened as my cadence increased or decreased, what happened when I got close to the power cut off speed? Could I actually pedal the bike above the cut off, how fast could I go and how hard was it? What was it like with the motor turned off (as it would be if the battery ran out)? How noisy is it? How noisy at different cadences? I soon decided that there was one motor in particular that I absolutely did not want on a bike (but I later discovered that some riders loved it!)

After doing my homework for about a month during which I test rode over half a dozen bikes, I went to a test ride event run by Rutland Cycling and I rode three bikes that I had not ridden before. Each had a different motor, different battery size, different brand, all full suss, mix of 29er and 27.5+. I had each one for about an hour. I took the time to ensure each one was set up for me, not just the suspension and saddle height, but saddle fore/aft and lever angles. I used my own pedals. All the tyres were 2.6" or 2.8" wide and I played around with tyre pressures to get the best feel asap.

On one bike, as I rode towards the trail entrance, I'd done over 100 yards before I realised that the motor was not switched on! I took that as a good sign. Also, it was only the second emtb that I had ever ridden that just felt like a normal bike and that I could just ride without all the time thinking that I was on an emtb and what should I be doing next. The handling was excellent and I really, really, enjoyed riding the bike. I quickly realised that this was the bike for me.

What did I buy? The Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE

https://www.focus-bikes.com/int/95705-jam-9-6-nine

To translate: It is the emtb version of the Focus Jam bike. It is a slightly darker shade of blue than shown on the Focus webpage. It has 150 mm travel front and rear, a carbon frame, 29x2.6 wheel/tyres, 1x11, Shimano shifters and brakes, and a Shimano Steps E8000 motor. The battery has 378whr and is buried cleanly inside the frame and it is not removable except in a workshop. But I can double the range by adding an external battery to the down tube. Most people won’t need one, but mine was part of the deal, so I’ve got one. Each battery will give me 44 miles in Eco, 33m in Trail and 22 in Boost. In practice I use a mix of all three, but mostly Eco/Trail. I will easily get more than 22 miles with range to spare. I am still learning about how to get the best out of the bike, particularly its climbing ability. The bike looks sensational! Many riders don’t even spot straight away that it is an emtb. Tee Hee! Without pedals and after tubeless conversion it weighs 20.4kg which as close as makes no difference to 45lbs. That is a bit more than 50% heavier than my regular bike the Whyte T130C RS.

I have had the Focus since early Jan and I absolutely love it! The last time I rode, I had doubled the max distance I had managed for quite a while on the Whyte. I could have ridden further without ill effects but I ran out of time. I could have done the same again the following day because I had no problems with walking about the following day. I was still sweating, but I had no knee pain during the ride. As soon as I came to a trail section that would require max leg pressure, I upped the power mode. Shifting power from say Eco to Trail has a similar effect to dropping from the middle ring on the front to the granny ring, but I can do it under full leg pressure without any protest from the transmission. As soon as the trail feature has been passed, I drop back to Eco. I still use all the gears in the same way as I would on a normal bike, but I increase the power available to get me over the hump, or out of the hole.

Since buying the Focus, I have hardly ridden the Whyte. I rode it once just to remind myself what it was like. I was back to knee pain and ten mile rides! I will be selling the Whyte as soon as I can bring myself to part with it! (Black, Large, top spec, good nick, apply above).

The Focus emtb has brought back the FUN in my riding.

billycool

*I was writing this at the same time as Steve weirdly*

My initial views were that ebikes were for lazy people who didn't like or want to exercise. Coming from a background of competitive sport, the exercise and fitness was part and parcel of it, so I resented people who didn't want to earn exercise credits. I had no issue with people using them to assist them if they are limited/restricted in some way (bit like Blue Badge holders).

That opinion changed 2 weeks ago. I went on a forum ride with Steve Sordy round Sherwood Pines. Steve and his friend were on ebikes (they are both 67 and have creaky joints - they've earnt it). I was on my trusty FS bike. I'm 46 and fairly fit for my age but OMG. They just maintain speed and accelerate at times when I'm trying to catch my breath (usaully when you crest a hill and naturally slow down to get a breather - they actually pick up speed).All rather odd and I had to pedal to catch up during my usual `recovery` times. As a result my heart rate was off the scale. I was pooped by the end.

Speaking to them both they offered an alternative view. Why should just old or `disabled` people ride ebikes? Why can't someone just ride an ebike for the fun of it. The other rider John says he gets to ride further and see things he physically wouldn't be able to do on a normal bike. And that's not just old folk. He goes somewhere Swiss or Austrian to ride the ski slopes in the summer. With the ebike he can go off the beaten track and more importantly, climb to places most healthy humans can't reach.

We both came at it from different angles - I saw it as cheating because I'm used to grafting to earn my exercise credits. He viewed it as a tool to enable him to have fun - fitness levels and ability being less relevant.

I can see his point.

Personally - I like the exercise aspect and sense of satisfaction from that, but that's my sport background. I'm not competing against an ebike so why can't they go out and have fun? I'm just programmed to see it a certain way.

One day I'll have an ebike - when I'm older and less able. But if I see someone on one who is perfectly fit and heatlhy I'll probably feel less inclined to want to push them off.

I had a go on one and it was fun - in a different way. I can see the attraction and they aren't going away anyway.

As for your situation. I'm not sure an ebike is needed right now. They weigh 20kg, the one I rode had 29" wheels and was great in a straight line, also good DH due to the weight but was less agile on the twisty stuff. Currently not my cup of tea.

Go try a few - see what you think.

Maxdown

Good to see this will debate on for years and there are definitely good arguments either way. I went out this morning and found some jumps/DH but it was only short so had to make 9/10 climbs to re-run and I started to feel the grind towards the end and only for short enjoyment, still it was fun but can’t help wondering how diff it would be on an ebike.

I booked a trail day on this bad boy tomorrow and maybe a regular full sus next weekend, do the same route and compare. I’m not totally unfit but takes time to build that hill climbing strength again.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Cube-Stereo-Hy ... 128375.htm

steve_sordy

BillyCool wrote:

....................round Sherwood Pines. Steve and his friend were on ebikes (they are both 67 and have creaky joints - they've earnt it). I was on my trusty FS bike. I'm 46 and fairly fit for my age but OMG. They just maintain speed and accelerate at times when I'm trying to catch my breath (usaully when you crest a hill and naturally slow down to get a breather - they actually pick up speed).All rather odd and I had to pedal to catch up during my usual `recovery` times. As a result my heart rate was off the scale. I was pooped by the end.

................

You may well have been pooped BC, but I can assure you that we were both going a bit slower than usual on the climbs. We were both trying (and obviously failing) to show some trail etiquette towards you on your non-assisted bike. On the flat and downhill you would be faster than us. Our pedal assist cuts out at 15.7mph and then we are astride a heavy bike with big fat tyres. When we stopped, you didn't seem to be blowing too hard, so we didn't rest for too long. I thought we had done enough to give you a break without being at all condescending, but seems not; I will ask in future.

When I was doing the guided rides for the MBR Forum (and others), and before I got the emtb, I was very aware that my knee problems were slowing me down. Initially, I used to ride at the front the whole time because only I knew where were going and some of the turns were not at all obvious. But as I got slower I became aware that I was holding up the fast boys, so I changed my routine. Wherever there was an easily recognisable stopping point ahead, I would provide instructions and then go to the back and keep up as best I could. One of my mates actually advised me to get an emtb so that I could keep up better without having to spend the next three days hobbling about! At the time I felt a bit slighted, but that was just me reluctantly making the adjustment to the fact that I wasn't as fast as I used to be! When I'm riding my emtb, I don't believe that I ride any faster than I used to do before my knee problems started, with the exception of the climbs of course! With an emtb, anyone would be faster on the climbs!

Being free of sharp knee pain when riding is exhilarating and it is so much fun exploring my new limits.

By all means try an emtb, any will do for starters. I don't know of anyone that doesn't have a grin when they get off their first ride. They all get it. I have offered a ride to some riders and they refuse "in case they like it!" :shock:

The downsides to an emtb:
# They are between £1200-£1400 more expensive than the clockwork bike that you would normally choose. That is due to the motor, battery, controls, and generally stronger frame and other components required.
# Unless you have some experience in the area, some aspects of maintenance are now beyond standard techniques and skill sets. You will have to take the bike to your dealer for almost anything to do with motor, battery, charger, or the controls.
# There is a whole new area of concern about warranties. Motors, batteries and controls can all go wrong - and they are expensive outside the warranty period. Some riders of imported bikes have to send the whole bike back because the battery won't charge. Is it the battery, the charger, motor controls, who knows?
# They are more restrictive. Airlines will NOT transport a bike battery as they are too large. So how are you going to have that bike holiday in Tenerife or Sicily? You will either have to drive or hire a bike when you get there.
# Charging can be a problem depending upon the bike you choose. You may have an internal battery and have power in the garage, so a mucky bike is not a problem. But what about when you are staying in a small B&B and the host does not want your mucky bike in her hallway?
# Range anxiety becomes a thing for an eBike rider. Have I got enough to get round the trail? Have I enough juice left to explore that just discovered trail?
# The extra weight is significant. You won't notice it much if at all when riding, but you will notice it when you have to lift it over a stile or gate or up on to the roof rack.
# Then there is the second hand market to think about. Depreciation appears to be even higher on used emtbs than on clockwork bikes. The pace of emtb development is great and next years bike really will be better than this year's (unless, like Specialized, they launch the totally different 2019 bike and the problems were so widespread that 2018 bikes actually went up in used value). The upside of this is that second hand emtbs can be a bargain! That is as long as you know how to check out the battery and motor condition to ensure you are not buying a lemon.
# People you know and people you don't know will feel free to accuse you of cheating. I have a thick skin, but that gets under it!

My advice is to hold off getting an emtb for as long as you can. They really will be better bikes and maybe better value too in a few years time. But OMG they are so much fun!

steve_sordy

[quote="Maxdown"...............
I booked a trail day on this bad boy tomorrow and maybe a regular full sus next weekend, do the same route and compare. I’m not totally unfit but takes time to build that hill climbing strength again.

https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Cube-Stereo-Hy ... 128375.htm[/quote]

I have ridden a few varieties of that bike and you will enjoy it.The bike it is based upon is a very good bike. I wouldn't have the emtb version because of the Bosch motor. Bosch were pretty much the first one on to the market and it is now the most widespread eBike motor in use in Europe. I have read that Bosch adapted it from an HGV windscreen wiper motor, which is probably why they were so quick on the market with something relatively cheap. The motor is higher speed than other emtb motors and has a small front ring as a consequence. That may be why the motor is so noisy. But worse than that is the drag imposed upon the rider when the motor is off or you are past the cut off speed. The motor design requires the rider to backwind the motor! It is also at least a kilo heavier than other motors. According to emtb forums, Bosch have a very good warranty approach and I have come across zero complaints about their policy. But it is an ageing design and it is rumoured in the emtb press that they will be launching a new one before too long, ie designed for the purpose and not "based upon" anything. Anyone stuck with a brand new bike with the old motor risks being errr.... stuck with it.

PS: Make sure that you know how to operate the "Walk" mode before taking the bike out for the day.

Maxdown

Well I’m yet to be converted as there are always downsides to these things so maybe a regular bike will be the way to go. Plus it does save on coast as want to get something decent this time out.

kajjal

The main thing is to get out there and enjoy the mountain biking. We have an neighbour older than Steve and he has an FS EBike due to struggling on the uphills. If I can still whizz round like he does at 70+ I will be very happy.

steve_sordy

Maxdown wrote:

Well I’m yet to be converted as there are always downsides to these things so maybe a regular bike will be the way to go. Plus it does save on coast as want to get something decent this time out.

You could always buy my 2017 Whyte T130C RS

Maxdown

Well I had a decent run today and it felt good, really good, but it did feel like cheating a bit, it was so much easier on those climbs. It was bloody fun though I tell you, managed to make about three descents and ascents of a run when I would have only done once on a regular bike. They really fly under the power but as soon as it is low or switched it like peddling through treacle.

Got caught a few times in wrong gear or power mode then got stuck. It was pretty hard to get going once that happened and the bike sure was heavy. It was hard work just lifting and moving it around, lifting over a style was a challenge.

You feel pretty solid and stable going downhill and the weight counteracts the lack of flexibility and response so you have to ride a little different.

Battery didn’t seem to last that long but it wasn’t quite full and I prob didn’t use it very well. I passed a few lads on my back up and they def had bike envy.

Anyway it was a fun day but can’t say I’m convinced. The weight and battery life (on that model) need improving. Fox 36 Factory’s were buttery sweet though.

reaction57

I bought an eMTB because I wanted one, I didn't need one.

I ride further in a given time or faster over my regular routes.

I put in the same amount of effort as riding my "regular" bike so have no worries about keeping fit.

Mates that have tried my eMTB fall into three groups :-
1) definitely getting one
2) next bike will be eMTB
3) wish I could afford one

Most of those who won't have a go say " don't want to try it because I know I'll want one".

I ride for fun and can say without a shadow of doubt eMTB is MORE FUN (for me), and I ride more often.

...............each to their own, there's room for us all on the trails.

billycool

Reaction57 wrote:

I bought an eMTB because I wanted one, I didn't need one.

I ride further in a given time or faster over my regular routes.

I put in the same amount of effort as riding my "regular" bike so have no worries about keeping fit.

Mates that have tried my eMTB fall into three groups :-
1) definitely getting one
2) next bike will be eMTB
3) wish I could afford one

Most of those who won't have a go say " don't want to try it because I know I'll want one".

I ride for fun and can say without a shadow of doubt eMTB is MORE FUN (for me), and I ride more often.

...............each to their own, there's room for us all on the trails.

This is what I'm slowly coming round to.

As long as you are having fun.

steve_sordy

Riding an emtb in mixed company (ie with clockwork bikes) is different.

It requires me to ride a bit slower uphill, in fact more than just "a bit" slower as BC's post shows above. In addition, the breaks need to be the length that the clockwork bike riders need. But on the descents, and in the twisty bits through the woods, all bets are off! The clockwork bikes are likely to be faster, for a while at least until fatigue kicks in.

The other side of the coin was shown to me on Sunday when I rode with four other emtb riders. Three of us were being guided by two others for our first time around Woburn Sands. We started with the off-piste areas and then went on to do the red trail. Instead of having to hold back, I was having to go balls out a lot faster than I really wanted to, and for longer, and with shorter breaks. We were doing climbs that I would not have even attempted, or at the very least had to push up after the first third. Those climbs made getting around the forest a lot easier, but they didn't half consume my battery! The off-piste rides were fantastic, but require herculean push ups or an emtb with a big battery to access them. A bigger battery than I had for sure. I had opted for the 378Whr battery in my Focus and had decided not to take the extra 378Whr clip-on spare. In theory, I had 20 miles available in Boost, 30 in Trail and 41 in Eco (I normally have a bit more range, but it is a brand new battery). Back in the car park, I was down to one bar out of five and it had turned red and I had only done 14.5 miles with only 3 miles left in Eco! Those long climbs in Boost had drained the battery good and proper. Big learning session for me. Firstly I could never have ridden those fun miles without my emtb and second, I need to stay the hell out of Boost, it is seductive on the climbs - But I don't really need to go uphill that quickly! :oops:

Maxdown

Yep battery management is a technique and no doubt kit will continue to improve. Still keeping an open mind and going to compare to regular bike and see how much fun I have.

mattyfez

I suppose the best thing about ebikes is they are very expensive so unless needed due to disability we shouldn't see too many.

That said I've seen a few middle class tossers riding them an anti social manner in town! Hopefully they'll get bored quickly.

steve_sordy

mattyfez wrote:

I suppose the best thing about ebikes is they are very expensive so unless needed due to disability we shouldn't see too many.
...........................

Don't be too sure!
I was talking to one of the guys at Rutland Cycling in Jan this year and he told me that if it hadn't been for ebike sales the shop would no longer be there! For example, the Whitwell store sold £5m of ebikes* in the last 4 months of 2018. In addition they sell special maintenance packages designed for ebikes, with a discount if you had bought the bike from them. When the customer brings the bike in for its service, they nearly always buy something in the shop while they are there, and then again when they come to collect the bike. The space dedicated to ebikes at the Whitwell store has increased massively in the last two years. The whole of the upstairs is still dedicated to clockwork bikes though.

Maybe it's because I am tuned to it because I've got one, but I am seeing more and more emtbs about. I even see groups of them now, whereas last year it was one at a time. The industry is pouring in development money, witnessed by the new bikes coming on to the market all the time. Google "EMTB" and see what you get.

Note * The term ebike covers every form of battery powered bicycle. That takes you from budget rigid shoppers right up to high end carbon Enduro emtbs.

tom_howard

I'm not old (34)
I'm not disabled
While I'm not fit at the moment, through injury, I've been fit enough to race XC endurance events.
I have an Ebike (a '16 Specialized turbo levo) and have had it for 3 years.
When I got it, I had a fleet of very nice regular MTBs, but I wasn't riding, as I simply wasn't fit enough to ride to the trails, ride them, then get home without almost collapsing. (20mile round trip + what I did at the trails) riding with others was a no no as I was so much slower I felt terrible for them having to wait, so I hardly ever rode.

Went to a demo day the local concept store ran (mainly as mates we running it) not particularly interested in anything, Didn't even know Spec had an bike offering, as it hadn't been released, but had a quick go at the end of the day. It was a revelation. i flew round the demo loop, wasn't even out of breath. I tried to buy the demo bike there and then, but couldn't as it was a preproduction model, but was one of the first on the order book for a new one.

then I started riding it loads, at weekends, after work, with friends, alone, all the time. gradually i reduced the amount of assistance to the point I was just using the motor to overcome the extra heft of the bike, over normal. After that i started riding normal bikes again, but with he same frequency, getting fitter and fitter, (my wife used the ebike to pace me round loops and up hills) culmination in my entering the relentless 24hr event in Fort William, Solo. sadly, 2 weeks before the event i came off on one of mu training rides, which resulted in surgery on my knee. scuppering chances of riding

fast forward a bit and I'm about to get back into riding after 9 months off with injury, guess what I'm going to start on?

without the Ebike i would never have got as fit as i was without one, and although it was only partly responsible for the physical improvements, they wouldn't have happened without the ebike.

Any one who says they are for the lazy are just applying their own traits to other people.

steve_sordy

There is a long thread on an emtb forum about "ever been called a cheat?" There are lots of predictable answers, such as "cheating who?", "you can have this bike if you take the dodgy knees that go with it!". Some form of abuse was quite popular, and so forth. But the answer that got the most praise was "no I'm not cheating, I just changed the game!"