Chris Packham - Champion for the Countryside or Out of Touch Fool ?

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Comments

  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    Cut sheep farming subsidies- causing a huge drop in sheep farms. Massively reduce the dairy industry. In the near future bring in "artificial" milk http://www.perfectdayfoods.com. Re-wild the millions of acres of land no longer needed for sheep/cows. Use a small percentage of land for housing etc. The UK is amongst the most nature depleted countries in the world with most species in decline. More than 1 in 10 of species are threaten with extinction. Not what Countryfile would have you believe.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    bompington wrote:
    Where on earth do you shop?

    Waitrose.
    Venison seems to come in small portions and enjoy some extra packaging when compared to beef... :?
    There is also very limited choice of cuts... 2 at best and all pre-packaged. They also have burgers, but they are loaded with beef fat
    left the forum March 2023
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    bompington wrote:
    Where on earth do you shop?

    Waitrose.
    Venison seems to come in small portions and enjoy some extra packaging when compared to beef... :?
    There is also very limited choice of cuts... 2 at best and all pre-packaged. They also have burgers, but they are loaded with beef fat

    But complaining about the cost?
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Pross wrote:

    But complaining about the cost?

    SO what?

    It's not that Waitrose is more expensive... I can buy baked beans for 35 p a can... Morrisons's are 37.

    As I said, packaged Venison is around £ 40 per Kg, which is a bit dear, considering I don't even want to eat steak. If it was £ 15 a kg for cheaper cuts, I would probably buy it and make a casserole with it.
    Just don't know where to buy it from...
    left the forum March 2023
  • surfercyclist
    surfercyclist Posts: 894
    Waitrose? Pah, I wouldn't sully my fridge with that slop. Fortnum and Mason every time.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    As I said, packaged Venison is around £ 40 per Kg, which is a bit deer,
    Sorted that typo for you ;)
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    If it was £ 15 a kg for cheaper cuts, I would probably buy it and make a casserole with it.
    Just don't know where to buy it from...
    Get out of the supermarket and go to a butchers - supermarkets cater for the mass market - who don't want cheap venison cuts ...
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Slowbike wrote:
    Get out of the supermarket and go to a butchers - supermarkets cater for the mass market - who don't want cheap venison cuts ...

    You'll be surprised to know there is not a single butcher in Solihull (not in the centre at least). There is now a farm selling unpackaged produce and they do have a butcher... never seen deer though.

    Anyway, I am not actively seeking to eat meat, but if it was reasonably priced and easy to source, I would eat deer
    left the forum March 2023
  • surfercyclist
    surfercyclist Posts: 894
    So, not a vegetarian then....
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Here you go, ugo.

    Browns Of Solihull

    117 Prospect La, Solihull B91 1HT
    0121 744 4228 https://g.co/kgs/kh5h65
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Pross wrote:

    But complaining about the cost?

    SO what?

    It's not that Waitrose is more expensive... I can buy baked beans for 35 p a can... Morrisons's are 37.

    As I said, packaged Venison is around £ 40 per Kg, which is a bit dear, considering I don't even want to eat steak. If it was £ 15 a kg for cheaper cuts, I would probably buy it and make a casserole with it.
    Just don't know where to buy it from...

    You stated "Was priced a bit more in line with what I can afford, happy to eat offal or less expensive cuts" but you buy your food at the supermarket that almost always comes out most expensive in basket price surveys.

    The biggest issue seems to be that there just aren't enough supermarkets selling venison which is odd as there was a huge explosion a few years ago as people started to realise it was a more lean alternative to beef. I can recall it being much cheaper than beef equivalents in places like Morrison and Iceland but now they seem to carry very limited stocks.

    However, this shows that you can get it much cheaper than £40 per kg from Ocado https://www.ocado.com/browse/fresh-20002/meat-poultry-42114/venison-wild-game-42121 £11.50 per kg for some diced stuff for that casserole you mentioned.
  • Ben6899
    Ben6899 Posts: 9,686
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    As I said, packaged Venison is around £ 40 per Kg, which is a bit dear...

    I bought eight legs of venison the other day* - that was too dear as well.







    *I didn't. I don't eat meat.
    Ben

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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,593
    Ben6899 wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    As I said, packaged Venison is around £ 40 per Kg, which is a bit dear...

    I bought eight legs of venison the other day* - that was too dear as well.







    *I didn't. I don't eat meat.

    Took me a while! :lol:
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.
  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.
    Especially those who get EU grants for bulldozing a four wheel drive track across their Grouse Moors and can get Natural England to bottle taking them to court because it’s in National park and they never bothered with planning permission. :wink:
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.

    Of course. Like any business lobby. Name a successful industry that doesn't benefit from some form of subsidies or tax breaks. It's all very well saying we should abandon farming in this country and import everything, but that just means exploiting the resources of some other bit of the world instead.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    rjsterry wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.

    Of course. Like any business lobby. Name a successful industry that doesn't benefit from some form of subsidies or tax breaks. It's all very well saying we should abandon farming in this country and import everything, but that just means exploiting the resources of some other bit of the world instead.

    Ugo is being sensationalist in suggesting we ban all farming. We import steel, fighter planes and nuclear weapons so no reason not to import food.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    Can we export environmentalist, tv presenters?
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.

    Of course. Like any business lobby. Name a successful industry that doesn't benefit from some form of subsidies or tax breaks. It's all very well saying we should abandon farming in this country and import everything, but that just means exploiting the resources of some other bit of the world instead.

    Ugo is being sensationalist in suggesting we ban all farming. We import steel, fighter planes and nuclear weapons so no reason not to import food.

    Reading all of his posts on this thread I think he says why do we bother subsidising farming to such an extent given it is clearly unprofitable, and so much food goes to waste, so there is clearly some scope to scale it back. Furthermore a change of diet to less meat could possibly further reduce the need for farming, as the amount of energy and land wasted in raising livestock through growing corn, soy etc. which is all farmed could also be eliminated.

    I'll agree that sometimes he comes across as sensationalist but after a few more posts it make a bit more sense (in theory).

    One reason farmers appear so rich is because buying and selling farms are great for IHT planning, if you can afford it.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Pross wrote:

    You stated "Was priced a bit more in line with what I can afford, happy to eat offal or less expensive cuts" but you buy your food at the supermarket that almost always comes out most expensive in basket price surveys.

    .

    As I said, I am mostly vegetarian... I have no particular desire to eat meat... but if venison was priced reasonably, I might buy it every now and again.
    I won't go out of my way to find it... I'm just not that bothered
    left the forum March 2023
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.

    Of course. Like any business lobby. Name a successful industry that doesn't benefit from some form of subsidies or tax breaks. It's all very well saying we should abandon farming in this country and import everything, but that just means exploiting the resources of some other bit of the world instead.

    Ugo is being sensationalist in suggesting we ban all farming. We import steel, fighter planes and nuclear weapons so no reason not to import food.

    Reading all of his posts on this thread I think he says why do we bother subsidising farming to such an extent given it is clearly unprofitable, and so much food goes to waste, so there is clearly some scope to scale it back. Furthermore a change of diet to less meat could possibly further reduce the need for farming, as the amount of energy and land wasted in raising livestock through growing corn, soy etc. which is all farmed could also be eliminated.

    I'll agree that sometimes he comes across as sensationalist but after a few more posts it make a bit more sense (in theory).

    One reason farmers appear so rich is because buying and selling farms are great for IHT planning, if you can afford it.

    I count no IHT, red diesel etc as part of the wider subsidy.

    I agree that if we scrapped subsidies we would farm what we are good at in relation to soil and climate. If used education to reduce food waste then the level of imports could even reduce.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    I am not 100% sure how farms work but if you can envelope it in a LTD company then its 0.5% SDLT on acquisition then full exemption on transfer to a dependent after a certain number of years - this applies to any company so not a specific subsidy. In this case it's a nice kicker than any old shareholding as it usually comprises a dwelling and obviously land which are nice assets to hold - you can also have tenant farmers which mean you don't have to do the manual work.

    As for your second point - I *think* that is what ugo is also saying but going a step further and saying meat is also an issue but that's more environmental.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    I agree that if we scrapped subsidies we would farm what we are good at in relation to soil and climate. If used education to reduce food waste then the level of imports could even reduce.

    I agree...

    the problem is that we got used to see supermarket shelves always stocked up, which inevitably leads to huge waste (not to speak about wonky vegetables). If we got used to less stock, maybe we could live more in a more sustainable way.

    But of course we are very arrogant and if we don't find strawberries in January every day at any time in any shop, we think we are being rationed. It shouldn't be like that
    left the forum March 2023
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,811
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Shirley Basso wrote:
    I think it's more a question of overproduction, wastage, chemicals and subsidies.

    yes,

    it's never about producing more food, but rather don't waste it and maybe eat less of it, if I am allowed to say...

    It's a romantic idea that farmers are producing the food we eat, but bizarrely, people who need it don't seem to get it... it's rather destroyed and allowed to rot in the fields or in the fridges

    People on here are firmly in favour of subsidising farmers. They don’t even seem to mind that the richest get the biggest subsidies.

    I suspect the agric lobby is very well funded and has done an exceptional job over decades.

    Of course. Like any business lobby. Name a successful industry that doesn't benefit from some form of subsidies or tax breaks. It's all very well saying we should abandon farming in this country and import everything, but that just means exploiting the resources of some other bit of the world instead.

    Ugo is being sensationalist in suggesting we ban all farming. We import steel, fighter planes and nuclear weapons so no reason not to import food.

    Equally that's not an argument against producing some of our own. The arms industry has to be one of the most subsidised in existence, both here and abroad. Going even more off track, importing your telecommunications infrastructure may not be a great move even if it is cheaper.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    rjsterry wrote:

    Equally that's not an argument against producing some of our own. The arms industry has to be one of the most subsidised in existence, both here and abroad. Going even more off track, importing your telecommunications infrastructure may not be a great move even if it is cheaper.

    I think we should produce food... I don't think we should produce cheap food... I think we should produce quality food, that sells at a premium, make profits and we should even be able to export it.

    I can't see how growing sugar beet in the first world can be remotely profitable... or rape seed... but at least the yellow fields are pretty to look at, if full of pesticides

    In my ideal world, we would pay a little more for our better food and a lot less in housing
    left the forum March 2023
  • bianchimoon
    bianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    Surrey Commuter wrote:

    I count no IHT, red diesel etc as part of the wider subsidy.

    I agree that if we scrapped subsidies we would farm what we are good at in relation to soil and climate. If used education to reduce food waste then the level of imports could even reduce.
    On our local news the other day, the owner of a very large grouse shooting estate, was complaining vociferously that he couldn't shoot hawks that were killing curlews etc... the scary thing is that most people watching that report would believe his reasons. Re someone who said can we export TV naturalists, I can guarantee that, that person has never been out for a beer with a normal, everyday farmer and tried to have a conversation that didn't involve farming, tractors, why people shouldn't move to the countryside from cities or how poor they were due to cuts in subsidies.
    Give me an intelligent, passionate, thoughtful person like Packham every time.
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    bianchimoon wrote:
    Give me an intelligent, passionate, thoughtful person like Packham every time.

    indeed
    left the forum March 2023
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Surrey Commuter wrote:
    I agree that if we scrapped subsidies we would farm what we are good at in relation to soil and climate. If used education to reduce food waste then the level of imports could even reduce.

    I agree...

    the problem is that we got used to see supermarket shelves always stocked up, which inevitably leads to huge waste (not to speak about wonky vegetables). If we got used to less stock, maybe we could live more in a more sustainable way.

    But of course we are very arrogant and if we don't find strawberries in January every day at any time in any shop, we think we are being rationed. It shouldn't be like that

    Supermarkets are quite good at managing their stock to reduce wastage and whilst the figure of 144million tonnes of food waste is cited for the UK this is difficult to grasp as whilst it is a big number I can't find any figures for what is produced. Tesco do give a figures for waste food and bought food weights to allow you to derive a 4.6% wastage figure. So basically the wastage is mainly at the hands of consumers if you assume that all supermarkets are running similar losses to Tesco.

    If you scrapped subsidies then farming would be purely a price driven business and half the countries land would be deemed not worth farming. The remaining farmland would have no hedgerows, diversity edging etc. etc. You would then import a lot of food from countries with less stringent environmental protections. But hey when did the eco warrior not feel good about his electric car powered from a coal power plant because he can't look at the overall picture.

    In summary you are wasting your time optimising the big retailers of food as they already have the most elaborate and time tested systems to reduce waste.
  • tangled_metal
    tangled_metal Posts: 4,021
    I read something about tesco's efforts to reduce wastage. I believe they see it as a good way to increase profits in a competitive sector when they can't increase market share.

    There's always farming wastage which is linked to the supermarket drive for perfection. The wonky food drive is a good thing in this respect. Although in producing areas this "waste" from supplying supermarkets might be feeding the local supply through farm shops and local grocers. We always used farm shops because they're cheaper when I was growing up.

    Our wastage I guess is high too. Buying in one big shop to last a week or more might result on wastage but we're not all time rich to do the frequent small shop thing. Batch cooking is one thing we keep talking about. One shop then a cooking afternoon. Then you freeze meals and have less to go bad.
  • shirley_basso
    shirley_basso Posts: 6,195
    I wonder what would happen to the farmland? In my region it is all being bought up by housing developers.

    Perhaps the subsidy is a price to pay for the countryside.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,325
    john80 wrote:
    But hey when did the eco warrior not feel good about his electric car powered from a coal power plant because he can't look at the overall picture.

    They can and even when you consider where the electricity comes from, how much of it is wasted in transporting, the carbon footprint of an electric car is less than that with a combustion engine.
    More to the point, the drive for electric cars is to reduce pollution in urban areas, rather than cutting carbon emissions.

    I would buy an electric car if the mileage was appropriate to our needs. We don't do short drives, only longer trips.

    That said, the Kia Niro EV claims 280 miles with a charge, which is dangerously near to where I would draw the line.... obviously a bit too pricey for us, but they are getting there
    left the forum March 2023

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