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9100 FD high/low adjustment

daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
edited April 2019 in Workshop
Morning all,

My retailer set up front derailleur, unfortunately rubs on the outer cage when trying to use gears 10 or 11, and this is in the trim position.

I have not looked in detail yet, but assume there is too much leeway when in 1st gear, and or the other adjustment screw is not set quite right.

I have used the high/low screws for bike builds before, but only from scratch, and never on a 9100.

Any tips or tricks on adjusting these?

Wasn't sure if it was likely to be the limit screws or cable tension.
Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
Scott CR1 SL 12
Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
Scott Foil 18

Posts

  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    Set it up like any other but no need for an in-line barrel adjuster whoop.
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    Set it up like any other but no need for an in-line barrel adjuster whoop.

    Thankyou, so just seems likely I need to tinker with the high\low adjuster screws to resolve it?

    Saw an installation guide where it mentioned the screw that is new to this and the R8000 (?) that creates tension against the frame\derailleur mount, but assume that is irrevelant with regards to rubbing on the cage.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • rafletcherrafletcher Posts: 1,235
    The new screw seems to seek to brace braze on front mechs to stop them rotating under load, presumably during changes - or possibly to make setting up the position of the mech a bit easier, I'm not really sure. I first saw it on the 8050 Ultegra Di2. I did use it there, but really I couldn't see a real need, I've never had a properly tightened front mech rotate like that. I'm just now building up a Trek Domane with 8070 Di2, and in this case I can't use the little pad they provide to stick on the seat tube as the braze on mount's in the way. Looks like I can adjust the little screw, but the tech docs don't seem too worried if you dont use it.

    It may be just another Shimano "safety" device, they seem to get more paranoid every year - flat mount caliper bolts having lock pins and split pins and anti-rotation caps added. :roll: Whatever did we do in the past to stop our bikes falling apart.
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,503
    Daniel B wrote:
    Morning all,

    My retailer set up front derailleur, unfortunately rubs on the outer cage when trying to use gears 10 or 11, and this is in the trim position.

    I'm a little puzzled by your comment about the outer cage rubbing in the trim position.

    If my understanding and experience is correct the trim position is when, while in the big front ring, you flick the inner paddle on your front mech shifter to move the mech cage fractionally inboard to prevent chain rub on the inner part of the cage as you shift to the lowest gears(largest sprockets).

    If your statement is correct then it is not surprising that you get rubbing on the outer cage when in the higher gears (smaller sprockets) as the outer cage is positioned slightly inboard of where it should be.

    My suggestion would be to shift onto the big front ring using the full sweep of the front mech shifter as normal. Don't activate the trim function and check if you get the chain rub. If you experience rub in this position then you can tweak the "high" adjustment screw by half a turn clockwise to move the cage slightly outboard. Check for rub again and repeat the "high" adjustment until the rub has gone.

    While you're at it you might as well check the cable tension alignment marks to ensure that the correct tension has been set by your retailer. (see page 18 in the tech doc below)

    https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-01-ENG.pdf
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    arlowood wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:
    Morning all,

    My retailer set up front derailleur, unfortunately rubs on the outer cage when trying to use gears 10 or 11, and this is in the trim position.

    I'm a little puzzled by your comment about the outer cage rubbing in the trim position.

    If my understanding and experience is correct the trim position is when, while in the big front ring, you flick the inner paddle on your front mech shifter to move the mech cage fractionally inboard to prevent chain rub on the inner part of the cage as you shift to the lowest gears(largest sprockets).

    If your statement is correct then it is not surprising that you get rubbing on the outer cage when in the higher gears (smaller sprockets) as the outer cage is positioned slightly inboard of where it should be.

    My suggestion would be to shift onto the big front ring using the full sweep of the front mech shifter as normal. Don't activate the trim function and check if you get the chain rub. If you experience rub in this position then you can tweak the "high" adjustment screw by half a turn clockwise to move the cage slightly outboard. Check for rub again and repeat the "high" adjustment until the rub has gone.

    While you're at it you might as well check the cable tension alignment marks to ensure that the correct tension has been set by your retailer. (see page 18 in the tech doc below)

    https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-RAFD001-01-ENG.pdf

    Hi Arlowood, thanks for your reply - I could have been clearer!

    The rub happens on the 36T ring, and in gears 10 or 11, I didn't find a hill big enough on my 20 mile outing to try the same gears in the 53 (Although I expect it to be the same or worse), but will do so in due course should I not be able to rectify at home - I can try it in the workstand at any rate.

    Thanks for the link to the tech doc as well :D
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • i.bhamrai.bhamra Posts: 153
    Daniel B wrote:

    Hi Arlowood, thanks for your reply - I could have been clearer!

    The rub happens on the 36T ring, and in gears 10 or 11, I didn't find a hill big enough on my 20 mile outing to try the same gears in the 53 (Although I expect it to be the same or worse), but will do so in due course should I not be able to rectify at home - I can try it in the workstand at any rate.

    Thanks for the link to the tech doc as well :D

    You should really be using the big ring and lower sprockets to achieve similar ratios as you are getting from what sounds like using the small ring and the highest (smallest) sprockets. You're chain line will be poor hence the rubbing.

    You can probably adjust it out but it might cause other issues including rubbing when at the other end of the cassette when in the little ring. Even if you adjust it out, your chain line will still be poor which may (or may not) result in accelerated wear on components and reduced efficiency.
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    i.bhamra wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:

    Hi Arlowood, thanks for your reply - I could have been clearer!

    The rub happens on the 36T ring, and in gears 10 or 11, I didn't find a hill big enough on my 20 mile outing to try the same gears in the 53 (Although I expect it to be the same or worse), but will do so in due course should I not be able to rectify at home - I can try it in the workstand at any rate.

    Thanks for the link to the tech doc as well :D

    You should really be using the big ring and lower sprockets to achieve similar ratios as you are getting from what sounds like using the small ring and the highest (smallest) sprockets. You're chain line will be poor hence the rubbing.

    You can probably adjust it out but it might cause other issues including rubbing when at the other end of the cassette when in the little ring. Even if you adjust it out, your chain line will still be poor which may (or may not) result in accelerated wear on components and reduced efficiency.

    Thanks for the reply, and I hear what you are saying, I think that defintely used to be the case with older groupsets, but I managed to set up my own Ultegra 6800 to have access to all gears in both chainrings with no rubbing, so feel it should definitely be possible with Dura Ace - being the Shimano pinnacle and all.

    But yes, take the point, using extremes from either chainring is sub-optimal.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • i.bhamrai.bhamra Posts: 153
    Daniel B wrote:

    Thanks for the reply, and I hear what you are saying, I think that defintely used to be the case with older groupsets, but I managed to set up my own Ultegra 6800 to have access to all gears in both chainrings with no rubbing, so feel it should definitely be possible with Dura Ace - being the Shimano pinnacle and all.

    But yes, take the point, using extremes from either chainring is sub-optimal.

    High end group sets are usually less tolerant to such things in my experience. Also way more expensive to replace parts that have worn prematurely....
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    i.bhamra wrote:
    Daniel B wrote:

    Thanks for the reply, and I hear what you are saying, I think that defintely used to be the case with older groupsets, but I managed to set up my own Ultegra 6800 to have access to all gears in both chainrings with no rubbing, so feel it should definitely be possible with Dura Ace - being the Shimano pinnacle and all.

    But yes, take the point, using extremes from either chainring is sub-optimal.

    High end group sets are usually less tolerant to such things in my experience. Also way more expensive to replace parts that have worn prematurely....

    Yep could well be!

    I will have a tinker and report back :D
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    The R9000/R8000/R7000 series gruppos are much less tolerant of cross-chaining IME making cage rub at the front mech much harder to dial out - the plastic inserts in the cage mean that the gap is narrower.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    svetty wrote:
    The R9000/R8000/R7000 series gruppos are much less tolerant of cross-chaining IME making cage rub at the front mech much harder to dial out - the plastic inserts in the cage mean that the gap is narrower.

    Ha, yes, a google of that or similar turns up a fair few threads, but I remain hopeful.
    Will try and have a look at the weekend, especially as the weather looks kak.
    Might get 30 minutes this evening to have a quick look even.

    I wonder if the plastic inserts could be despatched with.

    Interestingly, I saw a few threads where people had swapped to either 9000 or 6800 FD's to get around the issue.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • AlejandrosdogAlejandrosdog Posts: 1,975
    no, i have no rub with a 9001 in 3611 or 52/28 its all about proper set up. its easy to get about right, takes a smidge of faffing for almost right and a gentle touch to get it working right.

    Take your time it will all work out ok
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 8,787
    So a quick look tonight does indeed show it to be very tight.
    36/28 touches the plastic inside (frameside) the cage, so no leeway there (unless it's a limit screw issue), as thought, gears 10 and 11 both rub the outside edge of the derailleur, gear 10 is potentially acceptable.

    In the 53, there is only rub with the 28, which I would never want to run with anyway, so I will likely leave well alone for the time being, and see if I have time to tinker in the coming months.

    What I don't want to do is screw it up completely and make it unridable, which would sour the new bike feeling for me rather.

    I can see a metal plate on the seat tube that I would assume is designed for the tension screw, but there is nothing coming out of the derailleur, so looks like they chose not to configure it. Shifting too and fro is crisp as anything though, and don't believe that would contribute to the rub.

    Encouraging post from AD above, although that references 9000 series, and I saw at least one post from someone who could not get their 9100 setup as they wanted, so went to a 9000 derailleur and had no issues.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
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