Hardtail wanted

StuckintheSpokes

Budget is £2k.

Not an XC or DH bike.

Been looking on Wiggle and there are some tasty hardtails on there.

Commencal, Nukeproof, Ragley and Vitus. Nukeproofs and the Ragleys are unavailable, so I would have to wait if I want one of those.

I get 12% off there as well, so bear that in mind.

The only other options I have looked at are Whyte 905 and the Canyon GRAND CANYON AL SLX 9.0 SL.

JBA

For that budget I would have a serious look at the Bird Zero TR.
Cracking bikes that get consistently good reviews and the guys at Bird are brilliant to deal with.

cycleclinic

What you you mean by trail friendly. That will define the geomtry and therefore narrow frame options.

For somthing that is stable when going downhill an Orange P7 would suit as would the crush.

Then you have a choice of wheel sizes. Your question is to broad to give a balanced answer. you will however get peoples intrepetation of your question and what they would choose based on that.

So far you have bird because... and mine orange because of the slacker head tube angles and long top tubes and in the crushes case the ability to take 2.5" tyres. Also the are available as frame only allowing you to build the bike the way youd like it.

jamski

Another vote for Bird!

StuckintheSpokes

JBA wrote:

For that budget I would have a serious look at the Bird Zero TR.
Cracking bikes that get consistently good reviews and the guys at Bird are brilliant to deal with.

Needs a decent dropper, so that brings the price up a bit, but otherwise a very capable bike.

thecycleclinic wrote:

What you you mean by trail friendly. That will define the geomtry and therefore narrow frame options.

Well I would mainly be taking it to trail centres.

thecycleclinic wrote:

For somthing that is stable when going downhill an Orange P7 would suit as would the crush.

Looking more for fun and playfulness than a tank for downhill. I prefer enjoying the trail more than setting fast times.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Then you have a choice of wheel sizes.

The entire debate fries my brain. What about 29er up front, 27.5” at the back (if that even applies to hardtails)? More manoeuvrability or more grip? 29er for taller, 27.5 for shorter. However, I am 5”10 which is roughly in the middle.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Your question is to broad to give a balanced answer. you will however get peoples intrepetation of your question and what they would choose based on that.

Yeah fair enough. I need it to climb well, yet remaining capable on the descents. What else do you need to know?

thecycleclinic wrote:

So far you have bird because... and mine orange because of the slacker head tube angles and long top tubes and in the crushes case the ability to take 2.5" tyres. Also the are available as frame only allowing you to build the bike the way youd like it.

Do build-it-your-way bikes generally cost more? Never done a frame only build.

JBA

StuckintheSpokes wrote:

Needs a decent dropper, so that brings the price up a bit, but otherwise a very capable bike.


The entire debate fries my brain. What about 29er up front, 27.5” at the back (if that even applies to hardtails)? More manoeuvrability or more grip? 29er for taller, 27.5 for shorter. However, I am 5”10 which is roughly in the middle.

A decent dropper will still keep it way below your £2k budget.

Wheel size has nothing to do with rider height!

Bird have a demo fleet of bikes. Have a test ride and see how you get on.

StuckintheSpokes

JBA wrote:

A decent dropper will still keep it way below your £2k budget.

Wheel size has nothing to do with rider height!

Bird have a demo fleet of bikes. Have a test ride and see how you get on.

Taller riders tend to prefer 29ers and shorter riders tend to prefer 27.5”.

Maybe there’s some decent condition dream second hand hardtails out there... somewhere...

slc123

StuckintheSpokes wrote:

Taller riders tend to prefer 29ers and shorter riders tend to prefer 27.5”.

As JBA mentions wheel size has no bearing on the size of the rider. Frame size is what dictates the bike size. Wheel size will just change how the bike rolls and handles. 29er fast rolling and will go over pretty much anything. 26 far more manoeuvrable in tight technical areas but not as fast rolling. 27.5... just right for a mix of both in my humble opinion.

A frame only build can work out a lot cheaper if you are happy to spend time searching for bargains. They are there to be had. People strip things of new bikes and upgrade and then sell them cheap.

Second hand market is good if the bikes been well looked after but that can be tough to tell if you buy online.

cycleclinic

It's the wheel base that defines how manouvrable the bike is not the wheel size. 29er do tend to have longer wheelbases than 26" bikes but there are 650B bikes with longer wheel base than some 29er's.

My old Gary fisher ferrous has a short wheel base and is very manouverable (the short bars help) but the orange stage 4 has its front wheel in a different time zone and feel like turning a barge.

Saying trail centre does not help either. There are different kinds. Rocky or dirt trail centres. There are trail centres with steep climbs and decents and trail centres with none of that.

So given what you have said you could pick a 650B or 29er. A head tube angle of around 67 to 69 degrees would be a nice balance and front travel of around 120mm. Seat tube angles can be pretty steep these days. If the trails you riding on might be knarly the ability to clear 2.3+" rubber would be very useful. With a boost front fork you could have 2.3" rear and 2.5" front.

Slacker frames can still climb well. Short stays help. The bigger the rear tyre clearance the longer the stays. The slacker the head tube the steeper the seat tube angle normally. fork off set is important too. It is a way of increasing wheelbase. The longer the wheelbase the more stable it is.

The Bird hardtail has a very slack head tube angle (great going down), shortish stays but clearance for a 2.6" tyre (that might be tight) and a steep seat tub angle pushing more weight over the front wheel (good for going up). It also has a very long wheelbase. The Bird Zero TR is an enduro frame.

the orange clockwork is more of a XC frame with a less slack heat tube (seat tube angle is the same) and slightly longer stays. A shorter wheelbase on this bike will make it more manouverable. There is less fork travel too.

Overall you could have a lower more aero position on the clockwork and be quicker on fast trails but the bird would be give more confidence downhill and in the really technical stuff. Both bikes should climb at a similar pace

Learn to read the geometry. It tells all.

larkim

Just out of interest, what is the supposed handling difference due to a steep seat tube angle? If you're descending, surely you're out of the seat anyway so the angle is immaterial, and if you're climbing you'd just get the seat rails pushed foreward or rearward to suit your preferred position? I can see how other bits of geometry help and impact handling etc, but I struggle to see what difference the seat tube angle makes (within reason of course - I could see how absolutely extreme angles would cause an unavoidably cramped or long cockpit which couldn't be adjusted via seat position.

Genuine question, just want to learn!!

cycleclinic

you seat tube angle affects weight distirbution. some weight is needed over the front wheel or it rides up on a steep hill. You position your seat in the right place relative to the BB so be comfortable when pedalling. You then make sure you pick a frame with the right top tube length to avoid being cramped or over stretched. Bike fit on an MTB is just as important as on a road bike.

your suugestion buy any frame and then adjust the seat position to be not cramped. wrong way round.

In fact most of the modern frames need a longer stem for me anyway. 50mm stems leave me too upright even on long frames. The stage 4 has a 90mm stem in the XL large frame. the longer stem means I have more weight over the front wheel which i like alot.

larkim

I can see the front wheel weight logic - though I presume a longer stem has benefits in terms of weight distribution and negatives in terms of speed of steering etc?

Maybe it's a technique thing - for me on hills which are steep enough to cause the front wheel to lift when seated, I'd be out of the saddle anyway so *for me* seat position wouldn't impact. I;m only likely to spend much time in the seat when I'm just cruising down a gentle slope etc, most of the time I'm on my feet anyway!

But thanks for the explanation - I can see where you're coming from in terms of weight distribtion etc.

swod1

Also what about a Dartmoor Hornet the frames are so strong you can even run DH forks on them.

Not sure how much full bikes are but slam 69 are the uk distributors.

that's if there in stock as I was after one but ended up with a bird zero am frame, which I'm current using with 130mm revelations until money allows some upgrades to rs pikes and hope wheels.

StuckintheSpokes

slc123 wrote:

As JBA mentions wheel size has no bearing on the size of the rider. Frame size is what dictates the bike size. Wheel size will just change how the bike rolls and handles. 29er fast rolling and will go over pretty much anything. 26 far more manoeuvrable in tight technical areas but not as fast rolling. 27.5... just right for a mix of both in my humble opinion.

In terms of a sales perspective: I am by no means warranting it, sorry if you were lead astray.

slc123 wrote:

A frame only build can work out a lot cheaper if you are happy to spend time searching for bargains. They are there to be had. People strip things of new bikes and upgrade and then sell them cheap.

Second hand market is good if the bikes been well looked after but that can be tough to tell if you buy online.

Ok I am probably going to go the frame-only route and enjoy the hunt for great value parts!

Sounds like fun. First of all, frame hunting.

Well, the only thing putting me off would be no warranties on any of the parts.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Saying trail centre does not help either. There are different kinds. Rocky or dirt trail centres. There are trail centres with steep climbs and decents and trail centres with none of that.

I’m not going to stick to the same trails all the time: I’d like to travel and experience as much variation as I can. The ideal trail for me has to have as much variety as possible, basically. Something to improve my technique in all areas.

slc123

I think the weight distribution is a really interesting one. I think there are also a lot of factors to it. I remember on my HT when I was running it with 150nm forks it would feel quite light at the front on steep climbs and occasionally lift up. When I changed them over to 130mm forks it suddenly get farm more grounded as my weight was over the front more and the angle was less slack. It seemed a relatively small change but made a big difference. It’s presumably a similar story with the seat tube.

In terms of frames I don’t think you can go wrong with a Bird.

joebristol

Just in this one it sounds like you want a middle of the road / so it all kind of hardtail. One you can ride on normal trail centres (not massively rocky - more flowy), natural Singletrack, bit of not too difficult uplift day / pump tracks / messing about on
steps and stuff.

Personally I’d go 27.5 but no reason why you couldn’t go 29 either.

Bird Zero TR mentioned isn’t an enduro frame - it’s pretty much a do anything bike. The mentioned Orange P7 / Crush are more equivalent to a Bird Zero AM / Nukeproof Scout / Airdrop Bitmap etc - hardcore hardtails.

So to add to your list (Bird Zero tr) I’d put in the Vitus Sentier Vrx / Sonder Transmitter / Orange Clockwork 137. Bound to be more - here must be an equivalent Whyte - although they don’t sell frame only.

I have the Vitus after considering all of the above and it’s hilarious.

StuckintheSpokes

Joebristol wrote:

Just in this one it sounds like you want a middle of the road / so it all kind of hardtail. One you can ride on normal trail centres (not massively rocky - more flowy), natural Singletrack, bit of not too difficult uplift day / pump tracks / messing about on
steps and stuff.

Yeah exactly.

Joebristol wrote:

Personally I’d go 27.5 but no reason why you couldn’t go 29 either.

Bird Zero TR mentioned isn’t an enduro frame - it’s pretty much a do anything bike. The mentioned Orange P7 / Crush are more equivalent to a Bird Zero AM / Nukeproof Scout / Airdrop Bitmap etc - hardcore hardtails.

Thought the scout at 130mm is a contender?

Joebristol wrote:

So to add to your list (Bird Zero tr) I’d put in the Vitus Sentier Vrx / Sonder Transmitter / Orange Clockwork 137. Bound to be more - here must be an equivalent Whyte - although they don’t sell frame only.

I have the Vitus after considering all of the above and it’s hilarious.

What, because it’s £1400 with platinum discount? There’s only medium available at the moment, is that Ok for 5”10?

prawny

You could buy my Vitus Sentier VRS from 2017 for £500 and spend the rest on coke and hookers

StuckintheSpokes

prawny wrote:

You could buy my Vitus Sentier VRS from 2017 for £500 and spend the rest on coke and hookers

I could... if I would I’d use it on a turbo trainer. Either a cheap hardtail or a cheap road bike would do. You probably want it to go to a good home and have plenty of fresh air, which it won’t in my house.

JBA

Is this thread some sort of weird troll?
First you wanted a £2k hardtail for trail use but poo-poo every suggestion, then you were going to build up a budget bike and now you want a budget hardtail to use on a turbo trainer.

What exactly do you want?

swod1

JBA wrote:

Is this thread some sort of weird troll?
First you wanted a £2k hardtail for trail use but poo-poo every suggestion, then you were going to build up a budget bike and now you want a budget hardtail to use on a turbo trainer.

What exactly do you want?

I wondered the same thing and waited for someone else to post it.

Not sure what the hardtail on a turbo trainer is all about a cheap car boot road bike would work on that.

StuckintheSpokes

swod1 wrote:

JBA wrote:

Is this thread some sort of weird troll?
First you wanted a £2k hardtail for trail use but poo-poo every suggestion, then you were going to build up a budget bike and now you want a budget hardtail to use on a turbo trainer.

What exactly do you want?

I wondered the same thing and waited for someone else to post it.

Not sure what the hardtail on a turbo trainer is all about a cheap car boot road bike would work on that.

I was going to buy a Bird build, then I thought just get the frame and make it a project.

While doing the project, I could buy budget to have some hardtail to ride and use it on a turbo trainer (I have sold my old hardtail).

I have been very considering responding to all the posts in this topic, and taking on board various ideas.

Is that so hard to understand?

JBA

StuckintheSpokes wrote:

I was going to buy a Bird build, then I thought just get the frame and make it a project.

While doing the project, I could buy budget to have some hardtail to ride and use it on a turbo trainer (I have sold my old hardtail).

I have been very considering responding to all the posts in this topic, and taking on board various ideas.

Is that so hard to understand?

Yes, because your responses seem to jump all over the place with no consistency and some poor grammar (as highlighted above).
I am not trying to wind you up or have a go at you but it is hard to give advice when I can't work out what the question is.

StuckintheSpokes

I guess the Americanism using some instead of “a”is technically wrong. Are you an English teacher?

Yeah considerate not considering you got me there.

The question is: “What would you do with £2k if you had to get a do-it-all hardtail?”

Some have suggested get Bird bike.

Some have suggested buy a frame and start from there.

Someone suggested get a Vitus Sentier VRX.

Someone even suggested buying their own used hardtail and spending it on drugs and hookers (I ignored the last bit).

JBA

StuckintheSpokes wrote:

The question is: “What would you do with £2k if you had to get a do-it-all hardtail?”

I reiterate my suggestion of a Bird Zero TR. They are seriously good bikes. I bought my Zero Mk1frame after looking at and reading about lots of bikes and I am very impressed with it. It is comfortable enough for all day rides and can also handle a lot of abuse on the rough stuff.
I don't know where in the country you are but Bird have demo bikes at their HQ and Swinley and their Northern outlet at Hamsterley. PS Cycles also have Birds for test rides/hire at Cwmcarn.