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alloy climbing wheels: DT swiss, mavic or shimano

ggoysensggoysens Posts: 25
edited January 2019 in Road buying advice
Hi all,

I am thinking about getting myself an upgrade for my mavic aksium elite wheels. More specifically I'm looking for some climbing wheels as I will be riding the Tour Transalp next summer. But in general I would like them to be better or at least as good as the aksiums at all fronts.

Given the seemingly endless variety of wheels, I've gotten completely lost and can use some help. I will probably buy the wheels at my LBS, already limitting the available options somewhat. available brands: Mavic, DT Swiss, Shimano, Edco, Profile design and Zpeed.

Some extra information:
Budget wise i would say i'm looking at the mid to upper range of alloy wheels (let's say 500 to 800€ give or take)
I'm a 76 kg rider (about 167 pounds).
25mm tyres (can't fit bigger ones)

So, the things I'm currently thinking about:

* Mavic Ksyrium Elite UST: This would be a logical next step, coming from the aksium elites I suppose. However... With my aksium elites I have suffered the "Mavic dead squeal" already 2 times with about 14000km on the counter. This in itself has been a cheap fix at my LBS, but it makes me wonder about the hub quality. Reading reviews online I find that there is a discrepancy between "user reviews" and "magazine reviews" , the magazine reviews (bike radar, cycling weekly, etc.) are always quite lyrical about the ksyriums, while a lot of users complain about bad hubs and in occasion also rim cracks. I wonder where this discrepancy comes from. Is it just a case of "when many are sold, there are always some unlucky customers" or is it really a case of bad design and poor hub performance? As a second remark, I wonder if there is an aerodynamic disadvantage compared to the aksiums, as the rims are actually shallower (although just a bit) and as the internal rim width is smaller making my 25mm tires "mushroom" more.

* Mavic Ksyrium Pro UST: Is it worth it ? (a little above budget actually)

* DT swiss PR 1600 Spline 23: Again here the rims are a littble bit shallower and the internal rim width a little bit smaller. There is the Spline 32 option as well, but then the weight decrease is too small to my liking. I'm also not yet sure about the white rims, why is there no black option :(. In the bike radar review article https://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cat ... iew-52032/ they mention as a negative point "slightly less reactive to inputs" , but without further explanation... What is this about ? Is it the hub ? And compared to what ?

* DT swiss PR 1400 Dicut 21: Is it worth it ? Still shallower rims, but lighter and better hubs (or at least they should be)

* SHIMANO WH-RS700 : the internal width is only 15mm :(. I also wonder if 16 spokes in the front is stiff enough. These are the only ones without shallower rims however.

* shimano dura-ace 9100 c24: is it worth it ?

I would love to hear your thoughts and suggestions on my thoughts and questions.

Thanks! (Sorry for the long and dense question)

Posts

  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The Mavic wheels are the better offering. Some of the light weight DT Swiss wheels have 1x lacing. That makes me shudder.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • crescentcrescent Posts: 1,103
    Have you had a look at Cero wheels? I bought a set of AR24s and the difference in weight over my Aksiums is very noticeable. I think they are only about £200, so maybe not what you're after in terms of your budget, but you get a lot of bang for your buck. They are very free spinning as well, very impressed with them. I think for about £100 more you can get AR30s which are slightly deeper profile. Worth a look?
    Ribble Gran Fondo
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  • yiannismyiannism Posts: 345
    I was on your position for more than a year, since the day that i bought my infinito CV. Ive checked every possible wheels on that price. Ive decided to buy the Rolf Prima, but the dealer here was acting that he didnt want to sell, so i had to check other options. I got lucky to find the Fulcrum racing zero lightly used (just 4-5 months old as a 2nd pair) with almost new GP 4000 tires for 500 euros. Since then i rode around 2000km on them and i just love them. Its like having an other bike, stiff, but comfortable, the hubs some of the best in the market. The only worry here is the availability of a spare parts.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    why do you want alloy?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • yiannismyiannism Posts: 345
    why do you want alloy?

    On his budget why would check any carbon?
  • minnntminnnt Posts: 102
    Cero AR30’s from Cycle Division are a definite contender for alloy wheels. They’re super light so would be perfect for your needs.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    YiannisM wrote:
    why do you want alloy?

    On his budget why would check any carbon?

    carbonzone, farsport, etc.

    all really good and within budget.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • redvisionredvision Posts: 2,814
    Fulcrum racing zero. Or if you can afford the extra, racing zero nite (for even better braking).

    It's also worth considering Hunt wheels as they get a very good press.
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    redvision wrote:
    Fulcrum racing zero. Or if you can afford the extra, racing zero nite (for even better braking).

    It's also worth considering Hunt wheels as they get a very good press.
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels

    hunts are well overpriced for what they are. better options out there for the same/less money.

    see discussions passim.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • redvisionredvision Posts: 2,814
    redvision wrote:
    Fulcrum racing zero. Or if you can afford the extra, racing zero nite (for even better braking).

    It's also worth considering Hunt wheels as they get a very good press.
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels

    hunts are well overpriced for what they are. better options out there for the same/less money.

    see discussions passim.

    All matters of opinion though.
    I haven't ridden hunts but will be getting a set later this year as they have been recommended to me so many times.
    They might essentially be far east wheels resold, but you don't have to worry about import duties and from what I've been told the customer service is first class. So worth paying the extra for peace of mind, especially on the more expensive sets.
  • For once I have owned and ridden most of the wheels mentioned and usually buy wheels with climbing in mind.

    My default favourite climbing wheel is the Da c24, light, stiff and roll forever!

    I bought a bike with Ksyrium Elite S, which I sold as they were not as good as the DA and were expensive compared to the Cero AR24.

    The Cero are probably 86.3% of the ability of the DA :D , but great value.

    I use Aksium Elite as an all round winter wheel as I don't feel the Cero are as durable?

    I may buy another set of Cero as my next wheel as it is hard to justify the DA C24 at 3x the price?
  • +1 for the ceros, excellent value light weight wheels
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    The Mavic wheels are 2x DS rear Radial NDS and 29 spoke on a 17mm interal width rim not to dissimilar to the Maveic open pro USt part from being narrower and symmetric. you get the quite decent hutchinson made tubeless tyres and they are a good combination.

    DT swiss PR 1600 Spline 23 heavy by comparison Not sure if they fit the bill at all. For £400 they are alot of money too for what you get. I build higher spoke count wheels that come in a similar weight for less so what are DT Swiss doing with these?

    DT swiss PR 1400 Dicut 21 lighter but I would not buy them. the The rear wheel wheel is comprmised design The rim is similar but not the same as the RR411 as its 0.5mm narrower. IT might be the same rim but offical specs are different. The RR411 is sometimes bought by people to build light weight 24 spoke rear wheels but I think this is mistake. the wheel is light but not very stiff. To overcome this DT swiss have use there 240 hubs with a new shell with normal flange spacings. They have also used 1x lacing on the rear wheel not 2x which should be used on a 24 spoke rear wheel. 1x lacing allows shorter spokes to increase lateral wheel stiffness. The result though are large tension changes on the spoke when pedalling which more many will not be an issue but it could be for some given time. Also the wheel is likely to feel a bit sluggish next to a stiffer set built with tangential spoking (or close to that).

    SHIMANO WH-RS700 Not light but decent. Narrow internally. I think the mavic wheels are still a better option.

    Dura Ace C24. Why do people like them? People desicribe then as stiff. Take a rear wheel place NDS end cap on a bench and push on the rim lightly. feel that flop (you have also pushed your wheel out of true with light load) and you have the very definition of a flexible wheels. they are light and have nice hubs. Well so do stiffer wheels which will also handle a broader range of riders without issues. Yes people will say they are fine and they wear the paper thin rim out before spoke failure. They are however simply not worth the money.

    If the mavics dont appeal then try Campagnolo Shamal 2 way fit.

    Forget Fulcrum zero nite wheels. The USB bearings are utter garbage (O.k thats a bit strong it middle class John lewis garbage). The CULT bearing in the shamal is far better. The hardened stainless steel races and cones allow the cermaic balls to run with light oil alone and the bearing surface don't gall or pit easily at all. The USB bearing needs grease to protect the steel races from rust but they races are too soft (same races and cones used in the standard steel bearings that campag make which are excellent because they are made for steel balls) and will pit and gall leaving many customers disppointed. Otherwise its a campag wheel and quite decent.

    The Cero AR30's Where to I start. The rim is probably fine as are the spokes. enough depth and width to build into something decent given the spokes and spoke count used. Some users might get a bit of brake rub though as can happen with deeper rims with thin spokes. You would have to side load quite a bit though. The weight though is the issue. 1376g apparantly. The rims are 475g claimed. The 44 CX ray and alloy nipples will be 215g in the lengths needed for this wheelset. That mean the hubs are 205g for the pair which is not real.

    Carbon Ti hub are 224g for a pair and extralite are 182g for a pair. nothing on the market comes close to these. So something does not ad up. either the rim weight is wrong or the hub weight is or the combined weight is. Take your pick. If the rim is lighter than 465g then the spoke nipple bed or brake track is too thin. If it is the spoke nipple bed (thinner than 2mm) then cracking could be an issue.

    If the hub weight is accurate then the bearing will be small. 6802 for the rear is likely and it hard, to make hubs with those bearin reliable for most riders. Think Noavtec F482SB (actualy that has a 6902 on the DS and 6802 NDS). bearing life on these hubs can be variable. There small size (bearings) does not lend them to use during the wet months. heavier riders sometimes encounter issues too as the load rating is not high for this kind of bearing. Bearing can be chaged though but since the bearing seat distort on extraction and pressing in new ones the more this has to be done shortens the life of the hub, mainly due to people walking out bearings for there seats. Smaller bearing go cokeyed sooner and dont walk out straight. Also smaller bearing have higher rolling resistance. no a problem really but it there anyway.
    I dont believe the hub weight. Novatec and bitex dont have hubs that light. so excuse my skeptism but the spec is either censored or rim weight or wheelset weight wrong. In anycase could an user of these open the hub and check the bearing size, from the video it looks like 6802 or 5267 The latter has no supply from a big manufacturer like SKF or INA. Enudro bearings do make 5267 but I have never liked enduro bearings. They always seem to wear out too quickly. the hub actually looks like a Hubsmith HS-R001R for the rear which weighs 191g. The HS-R001F is 65g so that 255g total. Can some one check the wheelset weights please. The rear flange spacing for the rear hub is also 48mm according to hubsmoth which is censored and will make them less stiff than using a bitex or novatec hubs (latterally) and make brake rub more likely for more people.

    So for off the shelf wheels we are back to the Mavic Kyrerium Pro UST or Campagnolo Shamal.

    As always dig into the spec and it tells all. You have to look past the weight though.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • Recently purchased a pair of alloy Kinetic K1-30SL's for my S-works Tarmac. I went for the upgraded hubs (DT swiss 240) and the Sapim Cxray spokes. 1340g weight from memory. (I m 75kg) Have ridden them for 1 month and they spin up really fast, super light when climbing I m really pleased with them. A friend also has these wheels and feels the same. They are about the £900 mark with the upgrades.
  • Thanks for the tips and suggestions everyone!

    I've checked out the Cero AR30s and the specs do indeed amaze me. So much so that I wonder if a compromise is made somewhere? Couldn't find much negative reviews on them however, except for 1 guy who had his hubs worn out after 300 miles. Also a little worried that, when buying them online, maintenace and repair might take a while as they're not available at my LBS (but i'll still have my spare aksium).
    So for off the shelf wheels we are back to the Mavic Kyrerium Pro UST or Campagnolo Shamal.

    As always dig into the spec and it tells all. You have to look past the weight though.

    thanks for the in depth reponse thecycleclinic. I'll have to read it trough again and google some stuff to understand everything you just said however :D. In the beginning I was shifted towards the Mavics, then before your response I was beginning to shift towards the AR30s, but now i'm heading back to the mavics. I'll check out the campags as well

    Aargh, it's so difficult! :D
  • anyone experience with these wheels: http://www.zpeed.eu/index.php?route=pro ... duct_id=62

    Apperently they are on sale at my LBS (at least one pair is). Again an other option to doubt about :D. Personally I feel like the weight decrease is limited and because of the deeper rims, probably the inertia of the weel will possibly be higher than the aksium's.

    Thanks
  • Evans have the shimano DA 9100s on sale just now for £570
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Don't both with the c24's. There is no price that makes them a good choice. Look past the weight. What makes a good wheel is a stiff wheel and please don't tell me you think they are stiff.

    It's not hard op. You have two choices the way I see it for off the shelf that is. You could flip a coin. Of course the campagnolo wheels have the better hubs.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • svettysvetty Posts: 1,904
    shiznit76 wrote:
    Evans have the shimano DA 9100s on sale just now for £570

    I still have a pair of a previous version of these. Bought in 2007 I have ridden them for many 000s of miles and even had a front end shunt that sheered the headtube off the rest of the frame. The wheels are still serviceable and true although the rims are getting down to the wear markers now. Despite what Malcolm says they are reasonably stiff (I am almost 80kgs) and the hubs are still as smooth as butter.

    They aren't perfect and more modern rims are wider but at that price I'd still recommend them...
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • cyclecliniccycleclinic Posts: 6,865
    Being able to ride them without brake rub (which is probably what you are describing we hen commenting on stiffness) that however is because the rims are flexible. I never said you can't ride c24's without issues it just for what you have to spend better riding wheels can be had. The only good thing in the C24 is the hubs but they are not practical to rebuild onto new rims when the time comes.

    There is a fundamental misunderstanding here. You cannot guage how stiff a wheel is by riding them and rocking the bike. You find out by doing that only how flexible the rim is as flexible rims bend and don't rub the brakes.

    What the low weight does it masks the the low lateral and torsional stiffness so they feel light and responsive. A heavier stiffer wheel can feel just as responsive though.
    http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.
  • norvernrobnorvernrob Posts: 1,437
    redvision wrote:
    Fulcrum racing zero. Or if you can afford the extra, racing zero nite (for even better braking).

    It's also worth considering Hunt wheels as they get a very good press.
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels

    Another vote for the Racing Zero Nite. I’ve had a set for 3 years and they’re superb. I took them to the Alps twice last year and they were totally faultless, the braking into hairpins whilst descending is just awesome.
  • Just seen campag Neutron at chainreaction or wiggle at £275. I have hammered a pair for years and they are still true and only had 1 service with new bearings. They are the standard wheels . Not ultra. Tyre removal is tricky as there is no inner well to drop the tyre bead into. I should buy another set but still have 2 spare pairs of others hung up.
  • Just seen campag Neutron at chainreaction or wiggle at £275. I have hammered a pair for years and they are still true and only had 1 service with new bearings. They are the standard wheels . Not ultra. Tyre removal is tricky as there is no inner well to drop the tyre bead into. I should buy another set but still have 2 spare pairs of others hung up.

    Interesting. Contrary to the Wiggle page, I am guessing these have been gathering dust somewhere for a few years but nice wheels for that price.
  • At chain reaction. Just noticed new orders can save £10, or was it 10%. Still a bargain. I thought mine were listed as lighter than those described as 2018 wheels. Good enough.
  • philbar72philbar72 Posts: 2,228
    redvision wrote:
    redvision wrote:
    Fulcrum racing zero. Or if you can afford the extra, racing zero nite (for even better braking).

    It's also worth considering Hunt wheels as they get a very good press.
    https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-wheels

    hunts are well overpriced for what they are. better options out there for the same/less money.

    see discussions passim.

    All matters of opinion though.
    I haven't ridden hunts but will be getting a set later this year as they have been recommended to me so many times.
    They might essentially be far east wheels resold, but you don't have to worry about import duties and from what I've been told the customer service is first class. So worth paying the extra for peace of mind, especially on the more expensive sets.

    they do offer good service but their product is a bit flawed ( if you are talking about their race wide wheels). I've had mine for around 18 months and the hubs are deeply flawed. the pawls/seals/bearings are pretty damn cheap and nasty. the last thing I need is the pawls sticking, or the bearings going. I've repaired both but the actual sealing on the hubs is "spring/summer" only. deeply flawed product. I've reverted to my old training wheels with shimano hubs and to be honest, whilst not as light they are perfectly good.
  • Thanks for the input everyone!

    It seems like wheels, as was to be expected of course, are a combination of trade offs between properties and the value a rider gives to each of these properties.

    That being said ... I can't seem to find a wheel in my budget of which I like the trade off (or at least, I'm always doubting). So maybe I should check out the posibilities of hand built wheels...
  • Would you consider 2nd hand? I've got a pair of Ksyrium SR's sat in the garage I'm probably getting rid of surplus to requirements...
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