Why are batteries so **** !

ben@31

Its almost 2019 and we've made such good technological progress in other fields ... but ... batteries.

Almost everything I owned, from Garmins to expensive bike lights and now my mobile phone; all suffered from dead battery syndrome.

What is it that kills of batteries and why cant we solve this issue?

It's getting annoying that your expensive "good quality" items don't have user replaceable batteries and last only a few months.

cougie

Batteries are so much better than they used to be. They're clearly improving.

ben@31

cougie wrote:

Batteries are so much better than they used to be. They're clearly improving.

Clearly improving from very bad to just bad?

cougie

You obviously don't remember the nights of Eveready bike lights.
We'd go out for a couple of hours at night and we would be lucky to have one working front and rear between three or four of us.

With phones I don't get the fascination with thinner and thinner phones. I'd rather have a sturdier phone with a bigger battery.

kingstongraham

Months? Is that hyperbole, or genuine?

The only thing I have that I replace because of battery life decreasing is my phone. My front light is still going strong after about 5 years.

timothyw

Honestly, if you think you can do better, I suggest you come up with a few designs and get them patented.


Designing (better) batteries is really hard. That's why.


It does all dovetail nicely with planned obsolescence though - if a device has a battery that is hard to replace and dies after a couple of years then that's the more likely to get the consumer to buy the newer shinier version of the product.

The problem is compounded because Lithium batteries, the dominant rechargeable standard, are highly volatile and liable to catch fire in a spectacular fashion if mistreated - this is part of why so many devices don't give you access to their batteries or encourage you to replace them yourself - it doesn't tend to look good when people tweet their new laptop on fire because they've used a cheap knock off battery (which they then forget to mention...)


Anyhow, if it bothers you that much, learn how to tinker and replace the batteries yourself, or buy devices that have user replaceable batteries.

akh

I believe all rechargeable batteries have a limited lifespan. The number of charge cycles, storage temperature and storage charge (storing lithium batteries at full charge is bad for them) all have an impact.

I guess thinner and lighter devices sell better though, and manufactures probably quite like the devices being disposable. I agree though, if the size of the device allows, I'd rather have a replaceable battery, ideally of a standard sort.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

That's just reminded me, I ought to order a spare battery pack for my "nice" front bike light, think this is the third winter so it must have had ~50+ recharges so far.

jgsi

AKH wrote:

I believe all rechargeable batteries have a limited lifespan. The number of charge cycles, storage temperature and storage charge (storing lithium batteries at full charge is bad for them) all have an impact.

I guess thinner and lighter devices sell better though, and manufactures probably quite like the devices being disposable. I agree though, if the size of the device allows, I'd rather have a replaceable battery, ideally of a standard sort.

What are the battery protocols nowadays for modern batteries?

akh

JGSI wrote:

AKH wrote:

I believe all rechargeable batteries have a limited lifespan. The number of charge cycles, storage temperature and storage charge (storing lithium batteries at full charge is bad for them) all have an impact.

I guess thinner and lighter devices sell better though, and manufactures probably quite like the devices being disposable. I agree though, if the size of the device allows, I'd rather have a replaceable battery, ideally of a standard sort.

What are the battery protocols nowadays for modern batteries?

If the Internet is to be believed, little top up charges are best for lithium ion batteries. Don't store then fully charged (I've seen about 40%), prevent them getting too hot, and don't let them fully discharge (don't run one flat then leave it in a cupboard for 12 months). The link below is from Apple but all lithium ion batteries should benefit from the same treatment. Of course most modern device are disposable so you need to weigh the inconvenience of babysitting the battery for optimal life against what you want the device to do and when you might replace it.

https://www.apple.com/uk/batteries/maxi ... rformance/

ayjaycee

ben@31 wrote:

Almost everything I owned, from Garmins to expensive bike lights and now my mobile phone; all suffered from dead battery syndrome.

I don't know about light batteries but you can buy replacement batteries for a lot of Garmin models pretty cheaply and fitting them isn't generally a difficult job. I think the same goes for some mobiles with supposedly 'fixed' batteries although in my limited experience the job is a bit more difficult (but still doable even for a DIY numpty like me).

Ben6899

cougie wrote:

You obviously don't remember the nights of Eveready bike lights.
We'd go out for a couple of hours at night and we would be lucky to have one working front and rear between three or four of us.

With phones I don't get the fascination with thinner and thinner phones. I'd rather have a sturdier phone with a bigger battery.

I remember Eveready bike lights. We've come a long way.

OnTheRopes

Ahh yes the good old Never Readies, it wasn't the batteries though the lights were just crap, I seem to remember having to keep hitting them to get them to come back on

navrig2

ben@31 wrote:

Its almost 2019 and we've made such good technological progress in other fields ... but ... batteries.

Almost everything I owned, from Garmins to expensive bike lights and now my mobile phone; all suffered from dead battery syndrome.

What is it that kills of batteries and why cant we solve this issue?

It's getting annoying that your expensive "good quality" items don't have user replaceable batteries and last only a few months.

You are so wrong. Battery technology is so much better that it used to be. The downside is that environmentally modern batteries are a nightmare. Manufacture uses horrendous chemicals and disposal is not easy.

However if we are to adopt electric vehicles big time then the technology has to step up again.

ayjaycee

Totally agree on all counts about old fashioned bike lights. Not only were the batteries rubbish but so were the bulbs. By coincidence, I've just swapped out the Krypton (I think!) bulb in a D Cell Maglite for a LED substitute. Those krypton bulbs were like the sun compared to the things in old Ever Ready bike lights but the LED replacement is yet another step up.

lesfirth

I can see the OPs point,but he is obviously a lot younger than me. The improvement I have seen is enormous. I remember the days when a battery lasted just a few winter evening rides and if you left a flat battery in your lamp it turned into acidic snot and ruined the lamp.

darkhairedlord

FishFish

Are you the manager of a front light museum?

Great job!

Bumo_b

I remember my first bike, a folding shopping bike as we had no money, saved up for a dynamo set that use to slip in the wet, or if you positioned it for less slippage would wear the wall of the tyre down, next set was second hand set similar to the above. Personally think batteries have come a long way since then, although the advent of the blue LED and all that came after has helped battery longevity the most. The issue is that most rechargeable batteries do not respond well to deep cycling ie full charging/discharging

svetty

darkhairedlord wrote:

Not seen one of those for almost 40 yrs

darkhairedlord

Svetty wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Not seen one of those for almost 40 yrs

Pifco used to do some that were even worse than Everyready.

ugo.santalucia

ben@31 wrote:

What is it that kills of batteries and why cant we solve this issue?

Use...

Every charge cycle you are shifting lithium ions from a crystalline cathode (typically LiCoO2) to a graphite anode. Depleting the cathode of ions cause structural damage in the material, which over time reduces the capacity to shift lithium ions around the device and therefore the charge capacity of the battery.
Slow charging cycles help, but that is often beyond your control. Avoid using generic battery chargers and stick to the one supplied by the manufacturer. Leaving the battery fully charged for a long time damages it, as well as leaving fully discharged for long periods of time...

chippyk

darkhairedlord wrote:

Svetty wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Not seen one of those for almost 40 yrs

Pifco used to do some that were even worse than Everyready.

I had the plastic version of those in the 80s. Good god they were shit.

navrig2

ChippyK wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Svetty wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Not seen one of those for almost 40 yrs

Pifco used to do some that were even worse than Everyready.

I had the plastic version of those in the 80s. Good god they were shoot.

I had a dynamo set of that era. It wasn't much better. The turning force for the dynamo was so great I had to pedal downhill. Didn't last long either.

Tashman

ChippyK wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Svetty wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Not seen one of those for almost 40 yrs

Pifco used to do some that were even worse than Everyready.

I had the plastic version of those in the 80s. Good god they were shoot.

Me too, I might as well have done my paper round by braille for all the use they were 8)

cougie

Loved my tyre dynamo. Great light and made a noise like Airwolf.

Jeez you youngsters don't know how easy you've got it these days.

Bumo_b

I use to stick a playing card in the spoke held with a clothes peg to sound like a motorbike!

darkhairedlord

Bumo_b wrote:

I use to stick a playing card in the spoke held with a clothes peg to sound like a motorbike!

I still do.

johnnymcg259

Ben6899 wrote:

cougie wrote:

You obviously don't remember the nights of Eveready bike lights.
We'd go out for a couple of hours at night and we would be lucky to have one working front and rear between three or four of us.

With phones I don't get the fascination with thinner and thinner phones. I'd rather have a sturdier phone with a bigger battery.

I remember Eveready bike lights. We've come a long way.

remember 'Wonderlights' from the mid 1980's? They were co-sponsors of La Vie Claire I think? The lights were sh*te!

froze

Newer generation of rechargeable batteries are different from the days of nickel cadmium (NiCads) bats, new bats today it is strongly advised that you always recharge the battery fully after every use even if that battery is only down 5%! New bats today don't like to be fully discharged or nearly fully discharged and recharged, newer bats don't have a memory so you don't have to fully discharge before recharging like the Nicads.

The only areas that new bats are clearly better is in the fact they are smaller, pack more power, last longer in use (but LED's have significantly reduced the amount of power needed so that's probably most of it) than Nicads did, but Nicads lasted FAR longer in terms of years of life expectancy before having to replace the battery. All my Nicads generally lasted about 10 to 12 years before they needed to be replaced, even with constant recharging of newer bats I may only get 5 years out of these bats. And for some reason, which I can't figure out, but the bats used in electronic shifting systems are only lasting 2 years no matter how you treat them, in fact Shimano suggests replacing them every 2 years. But my lights seem to last about 5 years, however my Cygolite Mitycross battery is now 7 years old and going strong but that is a larger battery so that may be part of the reason, it's the small little batteries that seem to suffer the shortest life expectancies. My GPS I use in my one car that didn't come with a built in GPS, the batteries in the first unit died within a year, the second one did the same thing and I rarely, if ever, used the units on battery! So since it's plugged in all the time it's no a big deal the battery crapped out but still one year? Those were all Garmins too. On the bigger battery issue I have a drill that the battery is now 7 years old still going strong, as is my weed eater battery that's about the same age. I use to have a Nicad drill whose batteries lasted about 15 years, so it will be interesting to see which battery will last the longest in that application. So I really think it has to do with the battery size and the quality of the battery, Garmin evidently uses cheap batteries they can source, after all they want you to keep buying GPS's.

pinno

Oh, those were the days: