Trainer Road Ramp Test

barongreenback

Hmm, I think the opposite might be true and you hit the wattage ceiling. I had the flow and it's a great first entry into the world of smart trainers but the range of power available within each gear is narrow compared to more expensive options. So if your target wattage in a sprint workout for example is 350 with 80 watt rest intervals then you will need to change into a harder gear even in ERG mode.

Before you do the ramp test, put the trainer in manual control using the Tacx app, move to the small ring and the middle of your cassette. At a steady cadence, select a low wattage like 100 and see if you can hit it. Then move up in 20 watt increments and see if you can feel the resistance changing. Keep going until you feel no further change.

If you have an FTP of between 175-250 watts, you should be ok with that combination for this trainer. If you're more powerful, you may need to go to the big ring but put up with a little cross chaining unless you want to change gears.

rdt

kingrollo wrote:

EDIT - Despite everyone telling me to ensure trainer is in ERG mode - trainer road are saying you should be in resistance mode

https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-u ... +increases

That article is relevant for constant-effort FTP test protocols, such as TR's 20min and 8min (legacy) tests, but is not relevant for TR's now-preferred Ramp Test protocol.

In the Rampt Test, Erg mode *is* used if you have a smart trainer.

HOWEVER, the ramp test isn't going to work correctly if your trainer is unable to deliver the resistance being asked of it by TR's software. This can readily happen with less capable smart trainers if your gear selection is "inappropriate", leading to the trainer hitting a wattage floor or ceiling, and thus being unable to provide the resistance that TR is asking it to provide.

If your trainer cannot provide the resistance TR's asking for, then your Ramp Test results will be useless (you'll either be working materially less hard than TR believes you to be, or materially harderer, depending on whether you've hit a wattage ceiling or floor), so this needs to be addressed by ensuring you select an appropriate gear (or gears) throughout the test, as suggested by barongb.

daniel_b

So, 4th or 5th go at the test yesterday, and I believe I have a legitimate result.
Last ramp test claimed I was 205, I put that up to 216 (My adding 5%), and this one saw me make 20:30 in time, and achieve an FTP of 224, which seems about spot on, maybe a touch under.

My method was to spin at a higher cadence than my normal 90 average, which I use for the twin 8 test and has always worked well for me.
This time, I started at 90 for the warm up, and for the beginning of the ramp, and as soon as things started to get challenging I switched to more like 95-98, and then as the resistance ramped up, it just naturally came back down in steps, until I finished the last 90 seconds at 90 without me thinking about it, or making a conscious choice - my HR went higher than previous times as well.

I'm assuming this helped me at the latter stages as my muscles had had an easier ride, and latterly took the load over from Cardio.
Anyone else used this method of attack?

I can't help but think I should have been able to keep going at a lower cadence though for another 30 to 90 seconds, as I finished with that cadence of 90, and I know I can grind it out at 80 odd.

kingrollo

Daniel B wrote:

So, 4th or 5th go at the test yesterday, and I believe I have a legitimate result.
Last ramp test claimed I was 205, I put that up to 216 (My adding 5%), and this one saw me make 20:30 in time, and achieve an FTP of 224, which seems about spot on, maybe a touch under.

My method was to spin at a higher cadence than my normal 90 average, which I use for the twin 8 test and has always worked well for me.
This time, I started at 90 for the warm up, and for the beginning of the ramp, and as soon as things started to get challenging I switched to more like 95-98, and then as the resistance ramped up, it just naturally came back down in steps, until I finished the last 90 seconds at 90 without me thinking about it, or making a conscious choice - my HR went higher than previous times as well.

I'm assuming this helped me at the latter stages as my muscles had had an easier ride, and latterly took the load over from Cardio.
Anyone else used this method of attack?

I can't help but think I should have been able to keep going at a lower cadence though for another 30 to 90 seconds, as I finished with that cadence of 90, and I know I can grind it out at 80 odd.

I was hoping to just get on the trainer - with each step up the resistance increases , and you have to create more watts to turn the pedals - increasing the cadence to hit the target watts doesn't feel like the right approach to me.

Anyway my free trial has ended now - decided not go with the paid subscription.

rdt

Daniel B wrote:

Anyone else used this method of attack?

Yep, fairly similar to me except for the ending...

Daniel B wrote:

I can't help but think I should have been able to keep going at a lower cadence though for another 30 to 90 seconds, as I finished with that cadence of 90, and I know I can grind it out at 80 odd.

Maybe. Here's the end of my last ramp test, where I know I dug v deep, and you'll see my cadence (white lower line) slowly falling over the latter few minutes, before declining rapidly (from low 90s to low 70s) in the final 30-45s I just couldn't turn the cranks any longer:



But we're all different, many ways to skin a cat etc!

NB obviously an erg-mode ramp test

daniel_b

kingrollo wrote:

I was hoping to just get on the trainer - with each step up the resistance increases , and you have to create more watts to turn the pedals - increasing the cadence to hit the target watts doesn't feel like the right approach to me.

No indeed, it is meant to work like that, I suspect with your trainer it didn't have the ability to generate enough resistance in the particular gear combination you were in.
I wasn't increasing the cadence to hit the wattage, my direct drive trainer will ensure I hit the wattage whatever cadence I am managing - I did this purely to see if I could push some of the effort onto my cardio in the earlier part of the test, leaving my muscles with more capacity for the latter stages, and for me, on this trainer, it seemed to work.

rdt wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

Anyone else used this method of attack?

Yep, fairly similar to me except for the ending...

Daniel B wrote:

I can't help but think I should have been able to keep going at a lower cadence though for another 30 to 90 seconds, as I finished with that cadence of 90, and I know I can grind it out at 80 odd.

Maybe. Here's the end of my last ramp test, where I know I dug v deep, and you'll see my cadence (white lower line) slowly falling over the latter few minutes, before declining rapidly (from low 90s to low 70s) in the final 30-45s I just couldn't turn the cranks any longer:



But we're all different, many ways to skin a cat etc!

NB obviously an erg-mode ramp test

Indeed, I feel I should have been able to do what you did and gutted out an extra minute or so at a lower cadence but still at the high power output - next time I'll give it another go and bear that in mind.

rdt

Daniel B wrote:

I feel I should have been able to do what you did and gutted out an extra minute or so at a lower cadence but still at the high power output - next time I'll give it another go and bear that in mind.

From what you've written it sounds like you're getting closer to your ramp test 'technique' being as honed as your 8min test technique was earlier. Another test or two and you'll probably be there.

58585

Just to throw in a few pennies worth, Rollo.
The feedback you got from TR suggests that you were trying to ride too high a gear for the test, so you should have knocked it down a few gears and all would have been good. If you are in a low enough gear for the start of the test then there will be no issue and the trainer will increase the resistance as you go and you don't need to change gears during the test.

I've found after a couple of goes at the ramp test I managed to squeeze a few more seconds out of myself, so there is an element of practice I think, I agree. The test is nice and quick so it's easy enough to repeat it vs other test procedures I find.

daniel_b

rdt wrote:

Daniel B wrote:

I feel I should have been able to do what you did and gutted out an extra minute or so at a lower cadence but still at the high power output - next time I'll give it another go and bear that in mind.

From what you've written it sounds like you're getting closer to your ramp test 'technique' being as honed as your 8min test technique was earlier. Another test or two and you'll probably be there.

Indeed!

Glad I took the advice on here and persevered with it, as it's (for me) a lot less fatiguing than the other ones, especially if you are looking to carry them out every 4 weeks (in some of the programs) so makes that much more managable.

If I can get out of work anytime soon (Was meant to be gone 15 minutes ago) will be trying my first workout of the new plan and with the new FTP in 90 odd minutes.

kingrollo

58585 wrote:

Just to throw in a few pennies worth, Rollo.
The feedback you got from TR suggests that you were trying to ride too high a gear for the test, so you should have knocked it down a few gears and all would have been good. If you are in a low enough gear for the start of the test then there will be no issue and the trainer will increase the resistance as you go and you don't need to change gears during the test.

I've found after a couple of goes at the ramp test I managed to squeeze a few more seconds out of myself, so there is an element of practice I think, I agree. The test is nice and quick so it's easy enough to repeat it vs other test procedures I find.

TR - said I should have been in an easier gear ! - even though I was on the small chairing and only 3 or 4 cogs down. Couldn't quite fathom this - did as they suggested still the same.
In the end if just became more trouble than it was worth.

rdt

kingrollo wrote:

TR - said I should have been in an easier gear ! - even though I was on the small chairing and only 3 or 4 cogs down. Couldn't quite fathom this - did as they suggested still the same.
In the end if just became more trouble than it was worth.

Little consolation to you, but I don't believe the faff/frustration you've had trying to complete an erg-mode ramp test is that common. It's certainly nothing like my experience (albeit on a much more capable trainer), eg. I can just stick it in pretty much any gear I like, small or large, and leave it there throughout the test, and it just works.

As mentioned a few times earlier it seems you've come a bit unstuck trying to work around the erg-mode limitations of your Tacx Flow (eg. barongreenback: "the range of power available within each gear is narrow compared to more expensive options")...

Shane Miller picked up on erg-mode limitations of the Flow (needing to select the right gear for different wattages) in his review of it; see this snippet which seems directly relevant to your experience (Shane Miller: "learn how to ride erg-mode"):
https://youtu.be/sPYyPsrgwE4?t=924

Sounds like this may explain the problems you've bumped into. NB this will affect any app where you're using the Flow in erg-mode, not just TR, so worth understanding this...

kingrollo

rdt wrote:

kingrollo wrote:

TR - said I should have been in an easier gear ! - even though I was on the small chairing and only 3 or 4 cogs down. Couldn't quite fathom this - did as they suggested still the same.
In the end if just became more trouble than it was worth.

Little consolation to you, but I don't believe the faff/frustration you've had trying to complete an erg-mode ramp test is that common. It's certainly nothing like my experience (albeit on a much more capable trainer), eg. I can just stick it in pretty much any gear I like, small or large, and leave it there throughout the test, and it just works.

As mentioned a few times earlier it seems you've come a bit unstuck trying to work around the erg-mode limitations of your Tacx Flow (eg. barongreenback: "the range of power available within each gear is narrow compared to more expensive options")...

Shane Miller picked up on erg-mode limitations of the Flow (needing to select the right gear for different wattages) in his review of it; see this snippet which seems directly relevant to your experience (Shane Miller: "learn how to ride erg-mode"):
https://youtu.be/sPYyPsrgwE4?t=924

Sounds like this may explain the problems you've bumped into. NB this will affect any app where you're using the Flow in erg-mode, not just TR, so worth understanding this...

I am wondering if a fly wheel indoor exercise bike might be better for me TBH - couldn't justify a watt bike though - advantages would be that it would be in my house, (not garage) and I wouldn't have to mess about calibrating the thing before each session ...

hoojammyflip

Reading through this I would recommend a fluid trainer, like a Kurt Kinetic. The Kurt has a stable power curve which once the trainer is warm, is consistent. You can get good power estimates, particularly with Kurt's own 'in ride' sensor which is sampling from the roller, so sampling at between 50 - 100 times per second. If you calibrate at the start of the session, its very accurate. See the DC Rainmaker review. In ride sensor comes from Europe. This is much cheaper than one of these hooray trainers with all the unnecessary gubbins which are just different modes of failure waiting to happen.

rdt

hoojammyflip wrote:

Reading through this I would recommend a fluid trainer, like a Kurt Kinetic. The Kurt has a stable power curve which once the trainer is warm, is consistent. You can get good power estimates, particularly with Kurt's own 'in ride' sensor which is sampling from the roller, so sampling at between 50 - 100 times per second. If you calibrate at the start of the session, its very accurate. See the DC Rainmaker review. In ride sensor comes from Europe. This is much cheaper than one of these hooray trainers with all the unnecessary gubbins which are just different modes of failure waiting to happen.

I have a "hooray trainer with all the unnecessary gubbins" (Tacx Neo) plus a Kinetic Road Machine with inRide 3, so some direct experience of the above. My feedback:

1. "I'll give you my Neo when you pry it from my cold, dead hands". It is a fabulous training tool: jump on and use it without wasting time on calibration, which is a massive benefit; works pretty much flawlessly. Superb.

2. Kinetic RM is great old-skool trainer with the qualities you describe, BUT Kinetic remain cr@p at software and the Kinetic app and inRide firmware are riddled with bugs on Android, rendering them horrible to use. All the feedback from the web says inRide with iOS works fine, but with Android it's a disaster. NB Ray Maker didn't test it on Android. My experience is that it's impossible to calibrate the inRide within Kinetic's app; in TrainerRoad calibration works roughly 60% of the time, and when it fails you need to remove the battery from the inRide and wait forever for it to reconnect to TR, wasting your time and badly disrupting your workout. Total contrast the to TR/Neo experience.

3. My advice would be save up for a Neo(!) or similar if possible. But, if using a Kinetic RM (an undoubtedly solid bit of kit in itself) use it in conjunction with a real power meter if possible. If using the inRide stick to iOS. Avoid using the inRide on Android as by many accounts (including mine) it's likely to be a very frustrating experience. On Android, probably better sticking to TR Virtual Power in preference to the inRide, but recognise that without calibration the power curve will have the correct shape but will (likely) overstate somewhat (~3-6% on mine), so account for that if comparing to other power numbers.

StillGoing

rdt wrote:

3. My advice would be save up for a Neo(!) or similar if possible.

I echo the view. I've had a TACX Bushido Smart (crap with too much slippage), Elite Kura (good, but not a true smart trainer and nigh on impossible to use in the big ring for me) and an Elite Direto (initially good, but suffered with dropouts far too often and poor connection with apps). I should have just bit the bullet and bought a TACX Neo from the start, as having finally given in and bought one, it has been faultless with every single app I've tried. Only thing it won't do, is replicate a ride using a Wahoo ELEMNT, but it will with a Garmin Edge.

john1967

Trainer road rocks.Dont worry about which test is best or what your numbers are.Just stay in the green while training if you can.TR allows and advices you to bump your percentages up or down if your finding things to easy or hard.