US man killed by endangered tribe in india

rjsterry

Well I have found at least one academic book entitled "THE INVENTION OF RACISM IN CLASSICAL ANTIQUITY" by Benjamin Isaac, published by Princeton University Press.

RC, do you have any recommendations for the contrary argument?

robert88

So where did all the Neanderthals go?

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Well I have found at least one academic book entitled "THE INVENTION OF RACISM IN CLASSICAL ANTIQUITY" by Benjamin Isaac, published by Princeton University Press.

RC, do you have any recommendations for the contrary argument?

Well he’s one of the editors of the book I suggested, so that.

More to a book than its title.

rick_chasey

It is of course my own fault for bringing it up on the internet, but I love it how people do 5 minutes googling and go “right person who has spent years studying this. I’ve googled 5 things so you must be wrong”

You see it all the time with historians and other humanities guys.

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Well I have found at least one academic book entitled "THE INVENTION OF RACISM IN CLASSICAL ANTIQUITY" by Benjamin Isaac, published by Princeton University Press.

RC, do you have any recommendations for the contrary argument?

Well he’s one of the editors of the book I suggested, so that.

More to a book than its title.

Sorry, missed that post. Will scroll back and take a look.

rick_chasey

bompington wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Said’s Orientalism is the absolute game changer - first two chapters particularly and Spivak’s can the Sabaltern speak? Is the other.

The origins of racism in the West tries to establish if indeed racial ideas existed before the 18th Century, and the conclusion broadly is they start to surface but in the second half of the 18th, before becoming the full blown racism as we know it by the middle of the 19th. There’s a lot for the centuries before but it’s all just a precursor really.

It looks at the ancient stuff too, an entire volume for Ancient Greece for example.

However, racism and “racial” ideas are fundamentally modern.

^^ I’m working on the assumption you don’t get colonialism as I’m referring to without racism of course.

And of course none of this would be in any way connected to people working backwards to try and prove a firmly held conviction that white Europeans are uniquely evil and racist - in fact, that racism by definition is something that only white people do?
Would it?

Obviously not. Why where have I said that?

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

It is of course my own fault for bringing it up on the internet, but I love it how people do 5 minutes googling and go “right person who has spent years studying this. I’ve googled 5 things so you must be wrong”

You see it all the time with historians and other humanities guys.

Imagine how much fun I have with people who have watched a couple of episodes of Grand Designs. It's an interesting idea - that there is something fundamentally different about the ideas and justifications used to back up European imperialism. But there is a reason "plus ca change" is an expression.

rick_chasey

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It is of course my own fault for bringing it up on the internet, but I love it how people do 5 minutes googling and go “right person who has spent years studying this. I’ve googled 5 things so you must be wrong”

You see it all the time with historians and other humanities guys.

Imagine how much fun I have with people who have watched a couple of episodes of Grand Designs. It's an interesting idea - that there is something fundamentally different about the ideas and justifications used to back up European imperialism. But there is a reason "plus ca change" is an expression.

Yes, though I have argued, others have too, that the European expedience of colonialism, with all the associated racial segregation and race based violence, ultimately became an incubator for what became Europe’s WW2 and the holocaust.

If you learn to be genocidal to your advantage at the expense of “inferior races” why would you limit that to continents beyond European shores?

rjsterry

Rick Chasey wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

It is of course my own fault for bringing it up on the internet, but I love it how people do 5 minutes googling and go “right person who has spent years studying this. I’ve googled 5 things so you must be wrong”

You see it all the time with historians and other humanities guys.

Imagine how much fun I have with people who have watched a couple of episodes of Grand Designs. It's an interesting idea - that there is something fundamentally different about the ideas and justifications used to back up European imperialism. But there is a reason "plus ca change" is an expression.

Yes, though I have argued, others have too, that the European expedience of colonialism, with all the associated racial segregation and race based violence, ultimately became an incubator for what became Europe’s WW2 and the holocaust.

If you learn to be genocidal to your advantage at the expense of “inferior races” why would you limit that to continents beyond European shores?

Undoubtedly we learned to be more efficient and effective murderous bastards.

I think perhaps the influence of the ancient world is too readily dismissed. A majority of the important public buildings in Europe built during the peak of imperialism directly imitate ancient Rome and Greece. As did 20th century fascism, and others.

pblakeney

Anyone still in any doubt as to why this tribe would wish to remain isolated?

joe2008

PBlakeney wrote:

Anyone still in any doubt as to why this tribe would wish to remain isolated?

haha, great post.

bianchimoon

PBlakeney wrote:

Anyone still in any doubt as to why this tribe would wish to remain isolated?

I can’t think what’s worse a Christian trying to convert me or a historian trying to educate me

rjsterry

I now have a mental image of RC and me sat in a small boat, arguing while arrows whistle past our ears.

pinno

tribe
/trʌɪb/
noun
1.
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.

Not sure what's wrong with that.

Even the Kenyans themselves use the word...

http://www.kenya-information-guide.com/ ... ribes.html

TheBigBean

Robert88 wrote:

Anyway I understand there things called tribal tourists who attempt to reach areas like this but for touristic reasons. Crudely they want to gawp at a spectacle very different from what they are used to.

The guy clearly overstepped the mark in this case, but I don't think experiencing other cultures through travel should be reduced to a "gawping" label. Sure, there are places where this is an apt description of the interaction between drive through tourists who see a group of people through a camera lens, but it doesn't apply to everyone.

Years ago I was fascinated by the tribal* people of India so spent time trying to visit and stay with some. I was young and idealistic and it made a lasting impression. Based on the reaction of some of the people I stayed with I would say that it was a positive experience for them too.

Whilst these days I would shy away from organised ethno tourism, I would still probably jump at an opportunity to visit somewhere really remote and stay with some locals. I also don't think I would judge someone for wanting to experience something different even if that was in the form of organised tourism as not everyone can jump straight into the deep end.

None of this excuses the guy in question. The group is famous for its hostility to outsiders and its likely intolerance to disease.

*I've already forgotten the correct academic term, but this was widely used in India to distinguish various groups.

pinno

TheBigBean wrote:

*I've already forgotten the correct academic term, but this was widely used in India to distinguish various groups.

Precisely.
I would not take offence to being referred to as part of a 'tribe'. As long as the tribe referred to was the correct tribe.

My friend Andy is a Luo. He left Kenya and now resides here after getting a degree at a British University.
His concern would not be about tribe itself but about the disproportionate representation of the ruling Tribe - the Kikuyu's. We've had many conversations about Kenya. Even stories about his father being in the employ of the British administration in Kenya and having his family protected from the Mau Mau.
Although i've had that discussion regarding the Mau Mau uprising with RC and it's like banging your head against a wall.
There are 43 tribes in Kenya. Should we say 'there are 43 different types of people' or there are '43 different people's in Kenya' ? A bit clumsy. just for the sake of avoiding the term 'tribe'.

mfin

My god, this thread went full nerd at about page 3.

...and Rick, you went back on your promise...

Rick Chasey wrote:

I could bore you with the details

cooldad

Robert88 wrote:

So where did all the Neanderthals go?

Essex.

pinno

mfin wrote:

My god, this thread went full nerd at about page 3.

You can't use that word. It's derogatory, don't ya know.

But:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I mean, I think your banter is about as fun as brain cancer, but whatever.

rjsterry

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

*I've already forgotten the correct academic term, but this was widely used in India to distinguish various groups.

Precisely.
I would not take offence to being referred to as part of a 'tribe'. As long as the tribe referred to was the correct tribe.

My friend Andy is a Luo. He left Kenya and now resides here after getting a degree at a British University.
His concern would not be about tribe itself but about the disproportionate representation of the ruling Tribe - the Kikuyu's. We've had many conversations about Kenya. Even stories about his father being in the employ of the British administration in Kenya and having his family protected from the Mau Mau.
Although i've had that discussion regarding the Mau Mau uprising with RC and it's like banging your head against a wall.
There are 43 tribes in Kenya. Should we say 'there are 43 different types of people' or there are '43 different people's in Kenya' ? A bit clumsy. just for the sake of avoiding the term 'tribe'.

Maybe a pontoon with some deckchairs so we could all have a space.

pinno

rjsterry wrote:

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

*I've already forgotten the correct academic term, but this was widely used in India to distinguish various groups.

Precisely.
I would not take offence to being referred to as part of a 'tribe'. As long as the tribe referred to was the correct tribe.

My friend Andy is a Luo. He left Kenya and now resides here after getting a degree at a British University.
His concern would not be about tribe itself but about the disproportionate representation of the ruling Tribe - the Kikuyu's. We've had many conversations about Kenya. Even stories about his father being in the employ of the British administration in Kenya and having his family protected from the Mau Mau.
Although i've had that discussion regarding the Mau Mau uprising with RC and it's like banging your head against a wall.
There are 43 tribes in Kenya. Should we say 'there are 43 different types of people' or there are '43 different people's in Kenya' ? A bit clumsy. just for the sake of avoiding the term 'tribe'.

Maybe a pontoon with some deckchairs so we could all have a space.

We could build it. 10 railway sleepers and some decking. Proper job. I'm off to Jewson's...

rjsterry

Pinno wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Pinno wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

*I've already forgotten the correct academic term, but this was widely used in India to distinguish various groups.

Precisely.
I would not take offence to being referred to as part of a 'tribe'. As long as the tribe referred to was the correct tribe.

My friend Andy is a Luo. He left Kenya and now resides here after getting a degree at a British University.
His concern would not be about tribe itself but about the disproportionate representation of the ruling Tribe - the Kikuyu's. We've had many conversations about Kenya. Even stories about his father being in the employ of the British administration in Kenya and having his family protected from the Mau Mau.
Although i've had that discussion regarding the Mau Mau uprising with RC and it's like banging your head against a wall.
There are 43 tribes in Kenya. Should we say 'there are 43 different types of people' or there are '43 different people's in Kenya' ? A bit clumsy. just for the sake of avoiding the term 'tribe'.

Maybe a pontoon with some deckchairs so we could all have a space.

We could build it. 10 railway sleepers and some decking. Proper job. I'm off to Jewson's...

And a bit of crinkly tin to keep the arrows off. Some sort of propulsion would be good if we are drifting in the Indian ocean.

pblakeney

We need a bigger boat.

pinno

We could have a big screen on this 'ere boat broadcasting cricket.

pblakeney

Is Boaty McBoatface still available as a name?

pinno

PBlakeney wrote:

Is Boaty McBoatface still available as a name?

The McBoatface tribe sadly all died after the 'Ceilidh to end all Celidh's'.
Apparently, the drink was supplied by the Clan tribe Flung McDung.
Now I don't believe in conspiracy theories but...

rjsterry

Pinno wrote:

We could have a big screen on this 'ere boat broadcasting cricket.

Now that is a good shout. It could be double sided with one side facing the island. The lot that sent Voyager off into space missed a trick there.

pinno

Do you think the WRI could supply some fine Willow tea sets to hand out?

bianchimoon

Pinno wrote:

Do you think the WRI could supply some fine Willow tea sets to hand out?

Only if the ey-oop tribe can come along and we can have Yorkshire tea served in it

bompington

Never mind all this, I'm not sure I've ever come across tribalism worse than that between the Pro Race pre-state community and the Cake Stop pre-state community