Headset Problems

markybains17
markybains17 Posts: 21
edited October 2018 in Workshop
I have play in the headset but both bearings seem to be fine. No matter how tight I pre-load the spacers spin around a bit.

Poor description.. but does anyone have any advice?

Comments

  • Vino'sGhost
    Vino'sGhost Posts: 4,129
    are you tightening the right thing? some bungs have two hexs on smaller than the other one tightens the bung to the steerer tube the other the top cap to the sterrer / headset

    Pictures would help
  • figbat
    figbat Posts: 680
    Is the steerer cut to the right length? Got enough spacers in there?
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  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    Is the upper bearing cover fouling on the top of the headtube?
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • Killerclown
    Killerclown Posts: 110
    Arrange it so that you have a spacer on top of the stem. That should ensure you can get the preload. Also, check the preload washer / ring that should sit in the middle of the top bearing isn’t knackered.
  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    Yes, pre-load on the top cap at 8Nm and then 5Nm on each of the steerer bolts.

    Nothing has change in terms of size although I’ve changed the top bearing before (over a year) and it’s possible that I’ve got the wrong bearing. It’s be okay though so I say only possible. I don’t have the old bearing so does anyone know how I can find out with one I need? I’m okay with the diameters but the angles are harder to determine.
  • jgsi
    jgsi Posts: 5,062
    Did this just happen one morning or has it been ever so and you've just ignored it?
    The bottom bearing tends to get the most abuse from wear and tear.
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    If the spacers are spinning and the headset loose then you aren't applying enough pre-load. This is either because you aren't tightening the bolt enough or - more likely - that however much you torque the bolt something in the system is jamming preventing the bolt from applying force onto the bearings.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    markybains17 wrote:
    Yes, pre-load on the top cap at 8Nm and then 5Nm on each of the steerer bolts.

    Any reason why you are using a torque number on the top cap? Sounds completely unnecessary. Either way, it sounds as though you do not have enough spacers in the assembly. The spacers may be spinning because they are not being preloaded at all, because the top cap is tightening down on the steerer tube, rather than the top of the stem.
  • whyamihere
    whyamihere Posts: 7,702
    Just to check, are you loosening the stem bolts before tightening the top cap?
  • bigmitch41
    bigmitch41 Posts: 685
    You shouldn't be applying torque to the top cap?
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  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    whyamihere wrote:
    Just to check, are you loosening the stem bolts before tightening the top cap?


    Thanks guys. I think it’s happpened over time and it appears that it’s not getting tight enough.

    I’m terms of the pre load. It says on the top of the steerer says 8Nm max. so as been as a I have a torque wrench it doesn’t harm to be prescise.
  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    BigMitch41 wrote:
    You shouldn't be applying torque to the top cap?

    Well, you need to pre load it. Seeing printed on side is 8Nm max.
  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    BigMitch41 wrote:
    You shouldn't be applying torque to the top cap?

    Yes, I think that I may need to try tighter.

    Any idea about checking bearing compatibility?
  • zefs
    zefs Posts: 484
    Loosen stem bolts, use an extra spacer on top to help with preload, tighten just a bit (not 8nm) until there is no play, torque stem bolts. You can now loosen the top cap without affecting the preload (because stem bolts are tight) and remove the extra spacer if you want to (for aesthetic reasons).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cOMlylJOI0
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    markybains17 wrote:
    BigMitch41 wrote:
    You shouldn't be applying torque to the top cap?

    Yes, I think that I may need to try tighter.

    No. The point being made is that there should not be a need to even go as high as 8nm. You don't need a torque value for the top cap - just tighten it enough (using an allen key and fingers) to remove play from the headset assembly.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    8Nm is way too much. If it's happened over time it sounds like it's time for new bearings.

    I need some too, lets see if we can get a 2 for 1 deal somewhere... ;)
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  • Killerclown
    Killerclown Posts: 110
    markybains17 wrote:
    BigMitch41 wrote:
    You shouldn't be applying torque to the top cap?

    Well, you need to pre load it. Seeing printed on side is 8Nm max.

    That’s for the expander plug in the steerer not the top cap. The top cap should only need to be hand tight, you can do it with an Allen key / hex key.
  • svetty
    svetty Posts: 1,904
    If the top bearing cover is pressing onto the headtube and not the bearing itself no amount of tightening or spacers will preload the bearing. Are you sure the top of the bearing is just proud of the headtube? You may need a shim under the cover.
    FFS! Harden up and grow a pair :D
  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    zefs wrote:
    Loosen stem bolts, use an extra spacer on top to help with preload, tighten just a bit (not 8nm) until there is no play, torque stem bolts. You can now loosen the top cap without affecting the preload (because stem bolts are tight) and remove the extra spacer if you want to (for aesthetic reasons).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cOMlylJOI0
    Thanks, I’ll try this tonight.
  • markybains17
    markybains17 Posts: 21
    Chaps - thanks for the concern about the torquing of the top cap / pre load. Less isn’t going to make it tighter remove play though. It’s not the issue. The bearing is proud of the top tube - I’m really thinking of it’s the right bearing
  • Killerclown
    Killerclown Posts: 110
    markybains17 wrote:
    Chaps - thanks for the concern about the torquing of the top cap / pre load. Less isn’t going to make it tighter remove play though. It’s not the issue. The bearing is proud of the top tube - I’m really thinking of it’s the right bearing

    Check the dimension etchings on the circumference of the bearings. Make sure the new one matches the old one.
  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    As mentioned before the 8NM is for the bung inside the steerer, not the pre-load on the top cap. If you've been tightening the top cap to 8NM you might have pulled the bung up. Check the bung is flush with the top of the steerer (you'll have to remove the stem to see this).
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    The most common reasons for inability to preload headset bearings /remove play are:

    1) not enough clearance between the top of the steerer/bung and the underside of the top-cap. Inserting an extra thin spacer is an easy way to check.
    2) bung not tight enough in the steerer so each time the top-cap is tightened it pulls the bung up a bit instead of eliminating play elsewhere. Some bungs are rubbish and seem to struggle with grip inside shiny carbon steerers.

    Beyond those, if you've fitted the wrong bearings, or reassembled incorrectly (spacers / shims / centring ring missing / in the wrong place) you'll never eliminate play

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