Why does a kmc 11-93 chain work better on SRAM eagle than the SRAM eagle chain.

cycleclinic

This weekend I did a 12hr MTB race solo. First lap the xx1 eagle chain snapped after an admitidly bad shift. A long walk back to the start area and all I could find was an lbs tent with a kmc 11-93. So I thought what the hell.

Even though it's an 11 speed chain and should be too wide it was not. It shifted better than the expensive eagle chain, ran quieter and did not break.

I will keep this chain on and see what it does to the cassette. 12hrs of racing ( well 10.3 hours) and not a problem with the chain apart from having to restart my first full lap 40 minutes late.

So any thoughts? Has anyone else found the same. To say I am surprised is an understatement.

cooldad

KMC just make good chains.

After hassles with snapping Sram and Shimano chains I switched years ago.

cycleclinic

They do. I am just surprised it worked. It like using a 9 speed chain on a 10 speed system. That normally does not work. Maybe SRAM 12 seed spacing is very close to 11 speed.

steve_sordy

I know your point is about the chain not breaking and running well, but cost has to enter the equation somewhere.

If the KMC works long term, you'll certainly save a lot of money, you would think.

But what will the life be like? If the KMC chain lasts no longer than usual, then it could be a false economy because a worn chain also accelerates the wear of the components it runs on, which are also more than usually expensive.

I have SRAM 12-speed running on my Whyte T130. I measure the chain at regular intervals and it is on target to last six times longer than any other chain I've had over the last ten years. I've already had more then twice the miles out of it, with only one third the wear.

cooldad

steve_sordy wrote:

...

But what will the life be like? If the KMC chain lasts no longer than usual, then it could be a false economy because a worn chain also accelerates the wear of the components it runs on, which are also more than usually expensive.

....

Huh?

steve_sordy

cooldad wrote:

steve_sordy wrote:

...

But what will the life be like? If the KMC chain lasts no longer than usual, then it could be a false economy because a worn chain also accelerates the wear of the components it runs on, which are also more than usually expensive.

....

Huh?

It seems an explanation is required.

If the chain you normally use lasts say 600 miles before needing replacing, or six months (whatever your measure of life is). Then in my personal experience the Sram 12-speed chain will last longer than that, a lot longer!

If some of you are lucky enough to ride in areas that are not abrasive and get life much longer than the figures I quoted above, then lucky you! But I'm willing to bet that the Sram 12-speed chain will last longer still.

I'm talking about wear here, as I'm sure pretty much any adult rider could break a chain with a clumsy shift while on full pressure.

cooldad

That's based on your personal experience, with one chain.

Having used literally hundreds of various chains over 50 odd years (I know you are old too....) and dozens in various sizes over the past decade, I'm happy to stick with KMC until they let me down.

But like everything it's personal choice. None of the major manufacturers really make bad products.

robertpb

Shimano chains are made by KMC to Shimano specs.

SRAM make their own chains in Portugal.

steve_sordy

cooldad wrote:

That's based on your personal experience, with one chain.

Having used literally hundreds of various chains over 50 odd years (I know you are old too....) and dozens in various sizes over the past decade, I'm happy to stick with KMC until they let me down.

.......

Hey, I'm not dissing your choice of KMC chain. :shock:

I don't claim hundreds of chains, dozens maybe. I have tried cheap, mid-range and expensive versions of Sram, Shimano, Wipperman, and a few that I have no idea what they were. But in the last ten years (since I started measuring them), they all wore out at pretty much the same distance. The summer ones lasted longer than the winter ones, very approximately, and that feels about right. But for me, riding where I ride, how I ride and on a variety of different bikes and speed of chain, I was lucky if I got past 600 miles. The Sram 12-speed chain on my Whyte T130 has astonished me. I have already got over 1300 miles on it and with only one third of the wear. As you say, one 12-speed chain. But the Sram 12-speed chain and the way it works with the gears is a different design. OK that could be all just Sram PR bullsh1t (and accepted by the mtb mags) but the chain looks different and the gears look different too. So why shouldn't it wear differently as well? I have no idea if the material or the heat treatment is different to normal Sram chains.

I have mentioned this extra life of my Sram 12-speed chain on this and another Forum and to many individuals, but so far nobody else has picked up on it and said "me too!". There are two answers to that: One is that I have an outlier here and it will never be repeated. I believe that to be unlikely as many tens or even hundreds of thousands of feet of the chain must have been produced at the same time to the same standards, so others will be benefiting. The other answer is that nobody else is measuring it as it wears.

By the way, does a standard chain gauge even work on a 12-speed chain? I doubt it because the rollers have a slightly larger diameter. Or at least mine does!

cooldad

I have never measured or checked a chain. When it looks a bit rubbish I replace it, and sometimes the cassette.

Generally after about a year or so of all year conditions.

Sometimes I just want nice shiny new stuff.

I've never had jumping chains or shifting issues. I do keep everything adjusted properly, and lubed. I gave up on Shimano because of the silly joining pin, and Sram once I'd snapped two (and friends on rides had too)

So I'm probably not the best person to get technical about stuff. I don't even have a clue how long anything lasts - old brain can't even remember what I had for breakfast sometimes.

steve_sordy

cooldad wrote:

.................

So I'm probably not the best person to get technical about stuff. I don't even have a clue how long anything lasts - old brain can't even remember what I had for breakfast sometimes.

I'm an engineer by training and inclination, although not by profession for many years. But now I'm retired I can indulge myself and be the anally retentive person I always was! So, yes, I measure stuff and record it. It does not make me a better rider, but it means that I never go out on a ride and have stuff breaking down on me that could have been prevented by an ounce of forethought. It means that within my mental capacity to grasp, I understand how the suspension works and how to tune it for my requirements. It also means that when I sell a bike, I can be convincing about what it's been up to!

I still have a huge amount to learn though! This forum is a great place to learn stuff, you just have to ask and not care about the tone of some of the answers.

cooldad

I rarely have anything break (except when I crash), and I do maintain quite well, just kind of check stuff as I go along.

And I noticed you have more time, and a lot more patience than me. It takes all sorts....

My sort is grumpy.

steve_sordy

[quote="cooldad"..........

My sort is grumpy.[/quote]

Nothing wrong with grumpy!

robertpb

Can I put the popcorn away now?

cooldad

You may, but an actual sensible person would have actually eaten it. And a really sad person would have a special popcorn cupboard.

Read into that what you like.

cycleclinic

Well my SRAM Eagle gold chain lasted 200km and low cadance climb out of a bomb hole in the dark is what did it in. Not very long lasting me thinks. KMC 11-93 chains on the other hand tollerate all kind of abuse although I did go through a stage of tearing X10-SL chains apart but not the 10-93. The chain that snaped in two places and nothing got caught in it, so it is not something I can depend on. A bad shift should not take out a chain like this.

Chain life for me has never been stellar. It might have to do with being able to make a 29er single speed with 36:17T gearing and 2.2" tyres work even in hilly area's. Therefore for me chain life is never that long.

yes chain wear is rider dependent. Steve_sordy I would not be so smug about your maintenance regime here. It was not a lack of maintenance that cause this failure. I even checked it before the race. If a chain is quiet and shifts well it should not be doing the cassette any harm. I'll find out if the KMC 11 speed chain do the job over the next few months. I'll report back regardless.

What annoys me more though because of the chain failure I had to restart my first lap. That was 40 minutes gone and I could have got another lap done. That would have put me in 4th place not 7th. not too bad given I started 40 minutes behind everyone else.

JBA

I don't believe there was any smugness here. steve_sordy was just recounting his experience, as was cooldad.
robertpb appears to have mixed up the forums and thought he was on STW.

This thread started out as a query/observation about using an 11-speed chain on a 12-speed transmission and its possibly affect on the cassette so let's keep it on track.

veronese68

JBA wrote:

This thread started out as a query/observation about using an 11-speed chain on a 12-speed transmission and its possibly affect on the cassette so let's keep it on track.

If a 12 speed chain has larger rollers as Mr Sordy says does that mean the teeth on the cassette would have larger spacing to accommodate them? That would make the cassette appear worn to an 11 speed chain, so you'd expect the chain to slip contrary to the experience of TCC in the OP.

cycleclinic

One possible reason why eagle users dont see increased wear life is many trash eagle drive trains. chain snap or mech break taking the chain with it. the point being the chain may last longer if anyone but steve could get them to last longer.

Time will tell. If I get 1000km out of the KMC chain then that is good going for me and will be 5 times better than what the SRAM chain managed. Zyro say it should like crap. If I trash a cassette i can live with that. I am curious now. I might be surprised. I have a new SRAM 12 speed gold chain on its way anyway. So I can try a back to back test and compare life span.

Yes this thread was started as observation.

steve_sordy

Veronese68 wrote:

............
If a 12 speed chain has larger rollers as Mr Sordy says does that mean the teeth on the cassette would have larger spacing to accommodate them? That would make the cassette appear worn to an 11 speed chain, so you'd expect the chain to slip contrary to the experience of TCC in the OP.

They are not massively larger, just a small amount. I'd need to go measure them, but the chain I have is no longer new. Whether it is an 11-speed or 12-speed chain, the chain pitch is still the same when new. But worn chains have a bigger pitch and that causes the root of the gear teeth to flatten and extend and the tooth face to hollow out as it wears.

In my opinion, because the chains were new is why the 11-speed chain ran without slipping on a 12-speed cassette. The fact that the 11-speed rollers are slightly smaller than on the 12-speed would not stop it engaging at the bottom of the new tooth in exactly the same place as intended. I'm still puzzled as to why a theoretically wider 11-speed chain ran on a 12-speed cassette without snagging the sides of the gears, but life is full of surprises. :shock:

steve_sordy

thecycleclinic wrote:

..............

Steve_sordy I would not be so smug about your maintenance regime here. It was not a lack of maintenance that cause this failure. I even checked it before the race. If a chain is quiet and shifts well it should not be doing the cassette any harm. I'll find out if the KMC 11 speed chain do the job over the next few months. I'll report back regardless.

.................

I can only write what I know (or believe until corrected), I was reporting what I do and what happens to me. My sincere apologies to you (thecycleclinic) if you believed I was implying criticism of your maintenance regime. I wasn't because I have no idea what your regime is. I'm not trying to upset anyone on this Forum, but if my choice of words did so, then I'm sorry about that.

If you discover that an 11-speed KMC chains run perfectly well on Eagle gears, and does not impair longevity of the other components, then potentially you will have saved all Eagle users some money. You may also provide a sales boost for KMC. I wonder if it is just KMC 11-speed chains, or could it be any 11-speed chain?

cycleclinic

No worries. If it goes badly wrong I'll let you all know too so no one else makes this foolish error.

steve_sordy

thecycleclinic wrote:

No worries. If it goes badly wrong I'll let you all know too so no one else makes this foolish error.

Not a foolish error at all, just a decision driven by necessity that may turn out to be a breakthrough.

swod1

I think you’ve got lucky.

Kmc chains are much better quality and have that x stretch protection so bound to be less movement between the rollers and so the chain doesn’t skip?

Interesting to find out long term.

Vino'sGhost

steve_sordy wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

..............

Steve_sordy I would not be so smug about your maintenance regime here. It was not a lack of maintenance that cause this failure. I even checked it before the race. If a chain is quiet and shifts well it should not be doing the cassette any harm. I'll find out if the KMC 11 speed chain do the job over the next few months. I'll report back regardless.

.................

I can only write what I know (or believe until corrected), I was reporting what I do and what happens to me. My sincere apologies to you (thecycleclinic) if you believed I was implying criticism of your maintenance regime. I wasn't because I have no idea what your regime is. I'm not trying to upset anyone on this Forum, but if my choice of words did so, then I'm sorry about that.

If you discover that an 11-speed KMC chains run perfectly well on Eagle gears, and does not impair longevity of the other components, then potentially you will have saved all Eagle users some money. You may also provide a sales boost for KMC. I wonder if it is just KMC 11-speed chains, or could it be any 11-speed chain?

Its Jolly civilised in here, i wonder if thats a wisdom and experience thing or the lack of packed roads conflict

reaction57

I have done almost 2000 miles this year with Sram PC-XO1 Eagle chain (that's the silver mid-range one) and it's still within limits.

That's mixed dusty, wet and muddy conditions - standard UK.

I do carry out fairly rigorous lubing and cleaning.

I never got that sort of mileage from KMC chains in the past so will definitely be sticking with Sram when it comes to replacement.

steve_sordy

Reaction57 wrote:

I have done almost 2000 miles this year with Sram PC-XO1 Eagle chain (that's the silver mid-range one) and it's still within limits.

That's mixed dusty, wet and muddy conditions - standard UK.

I do carry out fairly rigorous lubing and cleaning.

I never got that sort of mileage from KMC chains in the past so will definitely be sticking with Sram when it comes to replacement.

From a previous post of mine....

"I have SRAM 12-speed running on my Whyte T130. I measure the chain at regular intervals and it is on target to last six times longer than any other chain I've had over the last ten years. I've already had more then twice the miles out of it, with only one third the wear."