Newbie Turbo Questions

timmyotool

Hi,

I was thinking of getting a turbo to get me through the upcoming winter. I've done a bit of research but there seems to be so many types of turbo and features that are available.

Couple of points:
I want something quiet, so direct drive seems to be the way to go.
I have a powermeter already.
I don't want to spend too much money £400 max.
I'm not sure what software I'd like to use, trainer road, zwift etc. so I'd like to keep my options open.
I would ideally like to do both interval style and longer workouts on it.

Thinks I'd like to know:
I want to stay motivated to use it, what features are key to you for this? Is a smart trainer key for this?

I notice people talk about turbo bordem, appreciate it's not the most interesting thing in the world, but neither are 3 hour cold winter rides in the dark. I would have thought a couple of hours of steady riding with something decent to watch wouldn't be too bad?

What turbo would people recommend? This seems to be a good option and as far as I understand I can use my powermeter to zwift etc.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-turbo-mui ... ve-trainer

StillGoing

timmyotool wrote:

Hi,

I was thinking of getting a turbo to get me through the upcoming winter. I've done a bit of research but there seems to be so many types of turbo and features that are available.

Couple of points:
I want something quiet, so direct drive seems to be the way to go.
I have a powermeter already.
I don't want to spend too much money £400 max.
I'm not sure what software I'd like to use, trainer road, zwift etc. so I'd like to keep my options open.
I would ideally like to do both interval style and longer workouts on it.

Thinks I'd like to know:
I want to stay motivated to use it, what features are key to you for this? Is a smart trainer key for this?

I notice people talk about turbo bordem, appreciate it's not the most interesting thing in the world, but neither are 3 hour cold winter rides in the dark. I would have thought a couple of hours of steady riding with something decent to watch wouldn't be too bad?

What turbo would people recommend? This seems to be a good option and as far as I understand I can use my powermeter to zwift etc.
<a href="http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-turbo-muin-ii-fluid-direct-drive-trainer&quot; class="skimlinks-unlinked" data-skimwords-word="http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wiggle.co.uk%2Felite-turbo-muin-ii-fluid-direct-drive-trainer" data-skim-creative="500005" title="">http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-turbo-muin-ii-fluid-direct-drive-trainer</a&gt;

A direct mount turbo is the way to go for noise, ease of use and no need for a spare wheel (although some don't bother with a spare). For the best integration you need a smart turbo, but a dumb trainer can be used. Your budget is limited for a direct mount smart trainer, but the Elite Turbo Muin B+ can be had for that money. You might be lucky to get a 2nd hand Direto, Kura, Flux etc. Some smart trainers come with built in power meters and ANT+ and Bluetooth FEC compatible.

Software wise will depend what you want to do. Remembering that time on the turbo is worth a lot more than the equivalent time on the road, you don't need to be doing hours at a time. You're constantly pedaling on the turbo (or rollers) so constantly making an effort. Plenty like Zwift for the game immersion, but I prefer Sufferfest and TrainerRoad for their short structured workouts. You need to consider how you're going to connect the turbo to the program you choose too. Some don't like Windows and bluetooth (Zwift), some devices don't like Windows and ANT+ (TrainerRoad) and some devices don't like iOS and bluetooth (Sufferfest).

Bottom briquettes

With the latest generation of Turbo trainers, and software ( Zwift et.al. ) you actually don’t need to pedal all the time. The programme actually keeps progressing as if you are actually riding, you can get to the top of a virtual climb, go over the top, then get off the trainer and go and have a cuppa / feed the cat / whatever, and the programme will have progressed to the bottom of the descent. If you get yourself a direct drive trainer, something like a Tacx Flux smart is good VFM, you may want to get a chain that’s dedicated to it, and not use the one on your bike that you use on the road. Zwift and trainerroad are good programmes to use.

dannbodge

The way to not lose interest is to get involved in the Zwift racing, group rides and group workouts.
They do "tours" of the various courses and things like training academys.

For the best experience I'd be looking for a trainer with full FEC control. To make use of the training sessions they have I'd personally want to use the trainer's powered meter with ERG mode as it will adjust the resistance to make sure you hit the correct power figures (I do my workouts with ERG and don't change gear for the whole session)

StillGoing

Bottom briquettes wrote:

With the latest generation of Turbo trainers, and software ( Zwift et.al. ) you actually don’t need to pedal all the time. The programme actually keeps progressing as if you are actually riding, you can get to the top of a virtual climb, go over the top, then get off the trainer and go and have a cuppa / feed the cat / whatever, and the programme will have progressed to the bottom of the descent. If you get yourself a direct drive trainer, something like a Tacx Flux smart is good VFM, you may want to get a chain that’s dedicated to it, and not use the one on your bike that you use on the road. Zwift and trainerroad are good programmes to use.

What would be the point of that? A turbo session is a supposed work out when time is limited or the weather is too inclement to venture outside. My understanding is that once the turbo flywheel stops (you need to pedal otherwise it will eventually come to a stop), the virtual freewheel will stop whether you're pointing downhill or not, otherwise, what would stop riders virtually rolling backwards when they come to a stop uphill?

Dannbodge wrote:

For the best experience I'd be looking for a trainer with full FEC control. To make use of the training sessions they have I'd personally want to use the trainer's powered meter with ERG mode as it will adjust the resistance to make sure you hit the correct power figures (I do my workouts with ERG and don't change gear for the whole session)

Couldn't agree more.

timmyotool

Dannbodge wrote:

For the best experience I'd be looking for a trainer with full FEC control. To make use of the training sessions they have I'd personally want to use the trainer's powered meter with ERG mode as it will adjust the resistance to make sure you hit the correct power figures (I do my workouts with ERG and don't change gear for the whole session)

Thanks all,

I've looked at the the Tacx Flux and that can be had for £450
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/202101589086

From what I understand compared the to the elite (http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-turbo-mui ... ve-trainer) is that the Flux it's own power meter, as well has having erg mode.
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2016/12/tac ... eview.html

The elite doesn't offer these features, however am I right in thinking I can use my current power meter 4iiii, so then instead of Erg mode I can use the bikes gears to manage the resistance instead? And still connect to all the apps.

StillGoing

The Elite Turbo Muin B+ doesn't have a built in power meter, but the Kura and Direto do, which are all mid range direct mount turbos do. The Turbo Muin B+ and Kura do not have ERG mode, but the Direto does. It isn't the turbo that needs to be compatible with your power meter, but the training software that you choose to use. ANT+ is common for power meters, so should be compatible with most of the training programs provided you have an ANT+ dongle.

timmyotool

philthy3 wrote:

The Elite Turbo Muin B+ doesn't have a built in power meter, but the Kura and Direto do, which are all mid range direct mount turbos do. The Turbo Muin B+ and Kura do not have ERG mode, but the Direto does. It isn't the turbo that needs to be compatible with your power meter, but the training software that you choose to use. ANT+ is common for power meters, so should be compatible with most of the training programs provided you have an ANT+ dongle.

Thanks, the idea of the ERG mode sounds great but I think it's out of budget for me. If I can get by using my powermeter to use all the software and adjust the resistance with gears then I think that should be okay.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a Muin and a Muin B+ one comes with a Misuro B+ sensor, is that something I definitely need to send data to my mac or is there a cheaper way of getting round it?

StillGoing

timmyotool wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

The Elite Turbo Muin B+ doesn't have a built in power meter, but the Kura and Direto do, which are all mid range direct mount turbos do. The Turbo Muin B+ and Kura do not have ERG mode, but the Direto does. It isn't the turbo that needs to be compatible with your power meter, but the training software that you choose to use. ANT+ is common for power meters, so should be compatible with most of the training programs provided you have an ANT+ dongle.

Thanks, the idea of the ERG mode sounds great but I think it's out of budget for me. If I can get by using my powermeter to use all the software and adjust the resistance with gears then I think that should be okay.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a Muin and a Muin B+ one comes with a Misuro B+ sensor, is that something I definitely need to send data to my mac or is there a cheaper way of getting round it?

You need the B+ sensor for the turbo to interact with the training software, but if you're just going to use an ANT+ or BTE sensor for your cadence and HR and utilise your 4iiii for the power, don't worry about it. Although using the gears to simulate resistance is OK, it is a different world to ERG mode. I once believed that using the gears was all I needed, but succumbed to ERG mode and glad I did. It makes following workouts in Sufferfest, TrainerRoad etc so much easier. Just stick it in one gear in the middle of the block for the straightest chain line and pedal.

singleton

I bought an Elite Turbo Muin Smart B+ in Feb and use it with Sufferfest - it's ideal for me. It does do power in case there is any confusion about that.
I got a 3 month free trial of Sufferfest and I run that on my MacBook so although there is bluetooth connectivity, I needed to buy an additional ant+ stick to get power readings in addition to connecting to my existing HRM - paid £290 for the turbo from cycle republic but I think Halfords do them as well.
Sufferfest is probably somewhere between zwift and trainerroad. It has structured workouts that allow you to focus your efforts but with some videos and music to keep you engaged rather than just staring at numbers. It also woks fine without ERG as I just use my gears to increase effort levels and power.
Overall, and especially for the price, I'd highly recommend it - happy to answer any questions you may have.

Typical Analytical

ERG mode is critical for me, but not for the same reasons as for some.

Some feel that they need ERG mode and a programmed workout to force them to work hard.

I use manual ERG mode though but love it because of the feel and not having to concentrate on holding power which I do think actually makes it more boring if that makes any sense.

With power fixed, I don't have to pay attention ; instead I just suffer. But just suffering is better than making your own suffering and having to concentrate to hold power. Cadence is a different kind of concentration which I enjoy controlling if I need to.

One very big thing that I discovered in the last few months is how awesome fixed power is for long rides. Just set the power and watch a movie or two. It's awesome and way better than Zwift for me which I am honestly surprised to say.

timmyotool wrote:

Hi,

I was thinking of getting a turbo to get me through the upcoming winter. I've done a bit of research but there seems to be so many types of turbo and features that are available.

Couple of points:
I want something quiet, so direct drive seems to be the way to go.
I have a powermeter already.
I don't want to spend too much money £400 max.
I'm not sure what software I'd like to use, trainer road, zwift etc. so I'd like to keep my options open.
I would ideally like to do both interval style and longer workouts on it.

Thinks I'd like to know:
I want to stay motivated to use it, what features are key to you for this? Is a smart trainer key for this?

I notice people talk about turbo bordem, appreciate it's not the most interesting thing in the world, but neither are 3 hour cold winter rides in the dark. I would have thought a couple of hours of steady riding with something decent to watch wouldn't be too bad?

What turbo would people recommend? This seems to be a good option and as far as I understand I can use my powermeter to zwift etc.
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/elite-turbo-mui ... ve-trainer

StillGoing

I have subscriptions to Zwift, TrainerRoad and Sufferfest. Zwift is for me, just an arcade game and the only reason I keep the subscription is because my 4 year old likes to ride along to it on an adapted Cyclops Magnetic that takes a 20" wheel. Sufferfest keeps the mind focused with its video, music and prompts and the workouts are tough. TrainerRoad is as good, but the ramp test is better than 4DP for me at present and a whole lot less suffering. ERG mode works perfectly for both of them so I can just stick in the one gear and let the resistance set the required power automatically.

timmyotool

Thanks again for all the advice.

Erg mode does sound great, particularly like the idea of using it for fixed power long ride.
I've just spotted that they've reduced the price of the flux, ahead of the new model coming out.

I think I can get BC discount on it as well so it would be cheap, I'm just a bit concerned about the noise, DcRainmaker says it's not super quiet and the issue with the long cage rear mec (but I think that can be avoided with a small range cassette?

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo- ... rt-trainer

I'm still leaning towards the Elite, especially as I think this one includes the sensor which makes it a good price.

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo- ... bo-trainer

redvision

https://uk.wahoofitness.com/devices/bik ... efurbished

StillGoing

timmyotool wrote:

Thanks again for all the advice.

Erg mode does sound great, particularly like the idea of using it for fixed power long ride.
I've just spotted that they've reduced the price of the flux, ahead of the new model coming out.

I think I can get BC discount on it as well so it would be cheap, I'm just a bit concerned about the noise, DcRainmaker says it's not super quiet and the issue with the long cage rear mec (but I think that can be avoided with a small range cassette?

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo- ... rt-trainer

I'm still leaning towards the Elite, especially as I think this one includes the sensor which makes it a good price.

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo- ... bo-trainer

There's plenty of places doing 0% finance if you can't quite stretch to a direct mount smart trainer with ERG mode.

dannbodge

Don't get a flux, especially if it's one of the previous generation models.
It's a great trainer when it works. I had 3 of them break within 10 hours of use.

timmyotool

philthy3 wrote:

There's plenty of places doing 0% finance if you can't quite stretch to a direct mount smart trainer with ERG mode.

It's more a case what I'm willing to spend finance or not, the Flux has erg mode with from what I understand relatively few downsides to the more expensive trainers.
Though the comments on here don't sound promising about the old model.
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/07/fir ... ainer.html

StillGoing

The noise from the trainer is mostly mechanical chain noise. I have a Direto and all I can hear is the chain with the odd electronic beep. The Direto is slightly louder than the Flux, but there really is nothing in it. Both have a maximum watts that is beyond the ability of most mortals and both are ANT+ and BTE compatible with FE-C control. The Direto has an inbuilt power meter that is accurate to a far better level than the claimed 1-2% so if you ever get hold of another bike for winter/turbo training, you don't need to splash out on another power meter. The Flux doesn't have an inbuilt power meter and relies on algorithms to calculate power with a claimed accuracy of 5%. If you can find a Direto, I recommend that as a mid range direct mount smart trainer.

https://www.cycletyres.com/blog/elite-d ... -best.html

singleton

timmyotool wrote:

I'm still leaning towards the Elite, especially as I think this one includes the sensor which makes it a good price.

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/turbo- ... bo-trainer

Looks like that one does have the sensor - which is the same as the one I've got.
If you're on Quidco, you can get 3% cash back on Halfords purchases.

For me it came down to how often it gets used.
My first choice is to go outside come rain or shine, so the turbo gets used when time is short or when the weather is truly hideous or dangerous. You may be wanting something to fit a different set of criteria.

timmyotool

Singleton wrote:

For me it came down to how often it gets used.
My first choice is to go outside come rain or shine, so the turbo gets used when time is short or when the weather is truly hideous or dangerous. You may be wanting something to fit a different set of criteria.

I think that sums how I intend to use it also. My interest in the erg mode is less for the structured training, I think I can manage the intensity myself, but more for the idea of sitting there on a rainy day in Zone 2 for an hour or two watching a film without having to think about what I'm doing.

I'm probably going to go with the elite, although another £120 for the flux isn't really a lot, my biggest concern is the reliability.
Think I'm going to try and find somewhere I can test one this weekend. Anyone know of anywhere in London you can do this? I know decathlon have some out in store, but I'm not sure what models.

Bumo_b

Hi, just a side note but remember there is a difference between the Muin II and Elite Smart Muin in that the smart version comes with the sensors whereas with the Wiggle version you would have to buy the additional misuro B device. However, Halfords do the smart version for the same price. The power is accurate once you have changed the tension, but as you will be using your power meter, it is not a problem.
My wife can now watch the telly whilst I train, which she could not do with my old trainer and I love my Elite Muin