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Sram red etap bad downshifting

prophproph Posts: 10
edited November 2018 in Workshop
hi guys,

i installed a new sram red etap to my also new Scott Foil RC-Frame. everything went well so far, but i just can't geht the damn shifting smooth.

Upshifting is not perfect but somewhat okay. Downshifting is just bad. the chain rattles really loud, before it changes the gear and i just really have no idea what im doing wrong here. i tried EVERYTHING there is with the B-Screw and microadjustments, no Chance to get the shifting smooth....

i made a video so you know hat im talking about:

https://youtu.be/bBU9zhVkQGw

Where is my mistake? i did i f*ck up something? the chain? the hanger? the derailleur itself? the cassette? the wheel?

http://www.prophoph.de/IMG_20180905_220240.jpg
http://www.prophoph.de/IMG_20180905_220304.jpg
http://www.prophoph.de/IMG_20180905_220349.jpg
http://www.prophoph.de/IMG_20180905_220413.jpg

Posts

  • webboowebboo Posts: 5,008
    Chain too long ?
  • Cables need cleaning, re lubricating and properly adjusting. Ah, etap... Read the manual and look on you tube.
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 10,714
    Nice bike, 2017 model, built up from a frame?
    Any more pics of the complete bike?

    Have you checked the hanger is in perfect alignment?
    An alignment tool has come in very handy for me several times, around £25 iirc.
    Is the chain directional?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    Cables need cleaning, re lubricating and properly adjusting. Ah, etap... Read the manual and look on you tube.

    Did so, serveral times...
    Webboo wrote:
    Chain too long ?

    Would be great if it was that easy. i got a 52/36 Crank and a 11-25 cassette and shortened the chain to 105 chain-links, which should be correct.
    Daniel B wrote:
    Nice bike, 2017 model, built up from a frame?
    Any more pics of the complete bike?
    Right, 2017 Foil-RC
    Here you go:
    http://prophoph.de/sdfsdf.jpg
    Daniel B wrote:
    Have you checked the hanger is in perfect alignment?
    An alignment tool has come in very handy for me several times, around £25 iirc.
    Is the chain directional?

    I didnt check the hanger, cause i dont have the tools to do so, but i thought, since the frame and hanger are brand new, i dont have to. Am i wrong? Can a not-aligned hanger cause such shift-behaviour?

    The chain is a Red-22, as far as i know, its not directional
  • norvernrobnorvernrob Posts: 1,444
    Have you followed the SRAM setup video on YouTube? Even if so I’d start again from the beginning, using the video and see how it goes.
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 10,714
    Daniel B wrote:
    Nice bike, 2017 model, built up from a frame?
    Any more pics of the complete bike?
    Right, 2017 Foil-RC
    Here you go:
    http://prophoph.de/sdfsdf.jpg

    Cheers - looks fantastic, love the integrated cockpit - is it a 54?
    Would be interested to hear what it weighs in at with the etap fitted?
    Where did you buy it from if you don't mind me asking - not seen many people still having it in stock.
    Are those cosmic exalith wheels?
    Daniel B wrote:
    Have you checked the hanger is in perfect alignment?
    An alignment tool has come in very handy for me several times, around £25 iirc.
    Is the chain directional?

    I didnt check the hanger, cause i dont have the tools to do so, but i thought, since the frame and hanger are brand new, i dont have to. Am i wrong? Can a not-aligned hanger cause such shift-behaviour?

    The chain is a Red-22, as far as i know, its not directional[/quote]

    I had a similar issue on my gf's brand new CR1 (Another Scott) frame, it was a comparative country mile out, the tool allowed me to identify the issue and sort it out - a great feeling (And a major relief) when it finally shifted properly!
    If it is the issue with yours, it may be more subtle than mine.

    The one I bought from a German site, but that was when we had a currency with some semblance of strength - this looks reasonable and could be a good investment:
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/x-tools-pro-gear-hanger-alignment-tool/rp-prod122319
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    proph wrote:
    I didnt check the hanger, cause i dont have the tools to do so, but i thought, since the frame and hanger are brand new, i dont have to. Am i wrong? Can a not-aligned hanger cause such shift-behaviour?

    The chain is a Red-22, as far as i know, its not directional
    i've not found new frame/hanger to be any guarantee of alignment

    i'd always check alignment when fitting a new rd

    another possibility is the wheel not being fully seated in the dropouts, to check/correct, stand to the right of the bike, lean over the saddle to put weight on it, reach down and release then tighten the qr

    the chain isn't directional

    the chain looks way too long...
    proph wrote:
    Would be great if it was that easy. i got a 52/36 Crank and a 11-25 cassette and shortened the chain to 105 chain-links, which should be correct.
    ...why 105 links?

    the correct number of links is determined by following sram's instructions for etap, not by counting links
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    sungod wrote:
    i've not found new frame/hanger to be any guarantee of alignment

    i'd always check alignment when fitting a new rd

    Ok, so ill go get the hanger aligned. i really hope thats the problem here...
    sungod wrote:
    another possibility is the wheel not being fully seated in the dropouts, to check/correct, stand to the right of the bike, lean over the saddle to put weight on it, reach down and release then tighten the qr

    Worth a shot, i will try that next!
    sungod wrote:
    the chain looks way too long...
    proph wrote:
    Would be great if it was that easy. i got a 52/36 Crank and a 11-25 cassette and shortened the chain to 105 chain-links, which should be correct.
    ...why 105 links?

    the correct number of links is determined by following sram's instructions for etap, not by counting links

    i followed srams instructions on measuring the correct chain-length (etap installation video), the result was 106 (not 105, i miscounted) links. then i checked the length on a site to measure chains-lengths, which also said 106 links, so i was pretty sure the length is okay how it is now.
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    just noticed it only looks look long because of the pics showing it in small-small, which you wouldn't be using anyway

    as long as there's still a bit of slack in big-big it's ok
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • To be honest the shifting seems fairly normal to me, how does it shift when you are turning the cranks at a normal cadence? (looks like you are turning them quite slowly in the vid which could make the shifting seem slightly off).

    I have etap with the same 52/36 and 11-25 cassette, my chain has 103 links so you could do with taking a couple out, in the small/small combination it looks pretty slack.
  • Chain on the wrong way round? Directional chains are directional for a reason.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,969
    Chain on the wrong way round? Directional chains are directional for a reason.

    He's already said it isn't directional. Do you not read threads before posting?
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    To be honest the shifting seems fairly normal to me, how does it shift when you are turning the cranks at a normal cadence? (looks like you are turning them quite slowly in the vid which could make the shifting seem slightly off).

    I have etap with the same 52/36 and 11-25 cassette, my chain has 103 links so you could do with taking a couple out, in the small/small combination it looks pretty slack.

    i've heard serveral etaps shifting, and upshifting is pretty normal, yeah, but downshifting is just to loud and takes to long and there is too much rattling. If nothing helps, ill try to shorten the chain by 3 links then. thanks for your advice.

    Daniel B wrote:
    Cheers - looks fantastic, love the integrated cockpit - is it a 54?
    Would be interested to hear what it weighs in at with the etap fitted?
    Where did you buy it from if you don't mind me asking - not seen many people still having it in stock.
    Are those cosmic exalith wheels?

    thanks, id really love it, if the shifting would work properly :D Its a 56. Its about ~ 7.3 Kg including Bottlecages and Pedals.
    Bought it from here: https://www.bike-components.de/de/Scott ... 17-p63779/

    The wheels are Cosmic Pro Carbon SL, not Exaliths.
    Daniel B wrote:
    I had a similar issue on my gf's brand new CR1 (Another Scott) frame, it was a comparative country mile out, the tool allowed me to identify the issue and sort it out - a great feeling (And a major relief) when it finally shifted properly!
    If it is the issue with yours, it may be more subtle than mine.

    The one I bought from a German site, but that was when we had a currency with some semblance of strength - this looks reasonable and could be a good investment:
    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/x-tools-pro-gear-hanger-alignment-tool/rp-prod122319

    That gives me hope. id really be happy if its just the hanger-alignment. ill get the bike to the workshop today and hope they can identify and fix it. But im really considering to buy a tool for future projects.


    Before going to the workshop i checked the hanger again, is it normal that there is an edge between the drop out and the hanger? ( Dont know how to describe it better, but i think you can see what i mean):

    http://www.prophoph.de/hanger1.jpg
  • So how can your wheel sit straight in that?
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    ^^^this

    the axle load is supposed to go through the dropout, as it stands the load is at least partly on the hanger

    aside from the misalignment, with the unintended load on it the hanger may fatigue over time and fail causing injury/damage

    at this point leave it alone and contact the retailer to show them the issue, it might be a badly made hanger, but could also be the frame needs replacing

    it's possible the hanger mounting is just sloppy, i.e. if the screws were loosened, wheel seated into the dropouts under load, then screws tightened, the dropout may end up in the correct position, but it really shouldn't be that sloppy a fit
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    proph wrote:
    i've heard serveral etaps shifting, and upshifting is pretty normal, yeah, but downshifting is just to loud and takes to long and there is too much rattling. If nothing helps, ill try to shorten the chain by 3 links then. thanks for your advice.
    yours is taking way too long, with the dodgy hanger/dropout the axle/rd alignment will be off

    fwiw mine shifts same speed both directions, click <snick> it's shifted
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • webboowebboo Posts: 5,008
    There was a thread about rear wheels not sitting straight in the drop outs. Someone said this was a known problem with Scott’s cr1. So it’s possible their might issues with others in their range.
  • Sometimes frames get sold that are out of alignment. It’s super frustrating and retailers probably roll their eyes and blame hapless home mechanics.

    I’ve had 2 duff frames, one was a handmade titanium one where the real triangle was misaligned. The retailers suggestion “all your wheels need dishing “ conversation over money back.

    The other was an sworks tt frame where the pins for the brakes were bonded in the incorrect orientation. That was a week of swearing and knuckle skinning till I took it back and compared. Stuff happens and Specialized swapped the frame immediately .

    It’s a new frame, if the dropout isn’t loose change the frame set and make sure you get a full brand new cable set too. Reusing even where you’ve only just fitted is sub optimal and that’s a top end bike you’re building.

    You would be perfectly entitled to take a full refund if you bought the frame in the UK
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    So how can your wheel sit straight in that?
    sungod wrote:
    ^^^this

    the axle load is supposed to go through the dropout, as it stands the load is at least partly on the hanger

    aside from the misalignment, with the unintended load on it the hanger may fatigue over time and fail causing injury/damage

    but the wheel doesnt even touch that part of the hanger? or am i wrong? As far as i can see, the wheel is just touching the drop out:

    http://www.prophoph.de/hanger2.jpg
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    ok then, fat dropouts :)

    in that case alignment time
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • Where is the skewer?
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    Where is the skewer?

    dismounted, to show, that the wheel doesnt touch the hanger.
    sungod wrote:
    ok then, fat dropouts :)

    in that case alignment time

    DAG-2.2 is ordered and will arrive on Tuesday, ill report if the hanger was ok or not and if it helped. :)
  • Take it to a workshop that has extensive experience of etap. They will know if something is wrong. My money is on a duff battery connection ...
  • SJH76SJH76 Posts: 191
    Hi. Just noticed this thread. Looking at your pics and video clip the last pic on the original post shows quite clearly to me the mech is not aligned to the cassette. As with any derailleur set up eTap still requires you to set the limits. I think you need to set up these properly first. Once you have done that you still need to do a tiny bit of fine tuning with the little buttons on the inside of the shifters themselves. If it shifts front chainring up and down ok that will eliminate the possibility of it being a shifter issue.
  • prophproph Posts: 10
    i will start adjusting from the beginning as soon as the hanger-tool is here. But i noticed another thing:
    The Rearwheel isnt fully centered as you can see here:

    http://www.prophoph.de/rearwheel1.jpg

    its off-center by 2-3 mm... I tried two different Wheels which both got this 2-3mm difference towards the left side. could that be a problem?
  • sungodsungod Posts: 15,256
    frame might be out of true, get the shop to check
    my bike - faster than god's and twice as shiny
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 10,714
    @Proph, did you ever get a solution to this?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
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