options to lower gearing for climbs
Comments
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FWIW I'm running 50/34 with 11-36.
It's a SRAM set up, with SRAM cassette and medium cage Rival derailleur. The derailleur looks a bit stretched on big x big but it can cope.
There are loads of online videos of people using an 11-36 cassette with 5800 or 6800 medium-sized derailleurs.0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:I cross chain my 105 quite frequently. If I'm out of the saddle it's easier to change to the 28 on the rear than shift the front to the 34 and then the rear in the opposite direction. The universe does not implode ....
The universe won't implode but your chain and sprockets will wear more rapidly. If you're running budget end Shimano then its cheap enough to replace, but Campagnolo Chorus cassettes (from memory) start at around 80 quid and Dura Ace, Sram Red and Record are significantly more than that. You pays your money, you makes your choice.0 -
cougie wrote:I never thought cross chaining was a problem for chain quality - just the extreme angle and extra friction in the drive chain ?
That's not changed ?
Exactly what I was thinking. Even assuming chains are better than they were due to better quality assurance checks (chortle) physics hasn't changed and surely the same chain will last longer if it's not put under load at extreme angles.0 -
Shortfall wrote:cougie wrote:I never thought cross chaining was a problem for chain quality - just the extreme angle and extra friction in the drive chain ?
That's not changed ?
Exactly what I was thinking. Even assuming chains are better than they were due to better quality assurance checks (chortle) physics hasn't changed and surely the same chain will last longer if it's not but under load at extreme angles.
You canny change the laws of physics Jim
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11 speed has a narrower chain so it is less of a problem. How far from straight would you suggest? 2nd largest sprocket on the rear and when on big front? this is all very silly. Yes, I can understand not ridding around all day everyday in Big-Big, but for a hundred yards or so it will make no difference to longevity.Shortfall wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:I cross chain my 105 quite frequently. If I'm out of the saddle it's easier to change to the 28 on the rear than shift the front to the 34 and then the rear in the opposite direction. The universe does not implode ....
The universe won't implode but your chain and sprockets will wear more rapidly. If you're running budget end Shimano then its cheap enough to replace, but Campagnolo Chorus cassettes (from memory) start at around 80 quid and Dura Ace, Sram Red and Record are significantly more than that. You pays your money, you makes your choice.0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:
11 speed has a narrower chain so it is less of a problem. How far from straight would you suggest? 2nd largest sprocket on the rear and when on big front? this is all very silly. Yes, I can understand not ridding around all day everyday in Big-Big, but for a hundred yards or so it will make no difference to longevity.Shortfall wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:I cross chain my 105 quite frequently. If I'm out of the saddle it's easier to change to the 28 on the rear than shift the front to the 34 and then the rear in the opposite direction. The universe does not implode ....
The universe won't implode but your chain and sprockets will wear more rapidly. If you're running budget end Shimano then its cheap enough to replace, but Campagnolo Chorus cassettes (from memory) start at around 80 quid and Dura Ace, Sram Red and Record are significantly more than that. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
Quite right. It’s about perspective.0 -
Bottom briquettes wrote:Quite right. It’s about perspective.
Really? Earlier on you said it was about enhanced QA procedures. So which is it?0 -
darkhairedlord wrote:
11 speed has a narrower chain so it is less of a problem. How far from straight would you suggest? 2nd largest sprocket on the rear and when on big front? this is all very silly. Yes, I can understand not ridding around all day everyday in Big-Big, but for a hundred yards or so it will make no difference to longevity.Shortfall wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:I cross chain my 105 quite frequently. If I'm out of the saddle it's easier to change to the 28 on the rear than shift the front to the 34 and then the rear in the opposite direction. The universe does not implode ....
The universe won't implode but your chain and sprockets will wear more rapidly. If you're running budget end Shimano then its cheap enough to replace, but Campagnolo Chorus cassettes (from memory) start at around 80 quid and Dura Ace, Sram Red and Record are significantly more than that. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
It's not silly it's just physics. Big big combinations are usually during hard efforts going up hill and you're wanting to keep momentum. The problem is that the chain is at it's most extreme angle at the time you're putting a hell of a lot of load through the drivetrain. I can hold my car on the clutch when I'm stationary on a hill and get away with it but its not really a good idea because eventually the clutch will wear out prematurely and so I use the handbrake instead. Like I said it's up to individuals how often they want replace chains and sprockets and at what cost, but as my bike has a mix of Chorus and Record I'd rather extend the lifetime as long as possible. Remember this debate started because Bottom Briquettes stated that cross chaining wasn't the issue it once was because of unspecified quality control measures (that he has thus far failed to expand upon). Perhaps if he could tell us exactly what has changed to make it a non issue I might have to change my mind.0 -
Bottom briquettes wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:
11 speed has a narrower chain so it is less of a problem. How far from straight would you suggest? 2nd largest sprocket on the rear and when on big front? this is all very silly. Yes, I can understand not ridding around all day everyday in Big-Big, but for a hundred yards or so it will make no difference to longevity.Shortfall wrote:darkhairedlord wrote:I cross chain my 105 quite frequently. If I'm out of the saddle it's easier to change to the 28 on the rear than shift the front to the 34 and then the rear in the opposite direction. The universe does not implode ....
The universe won't implode but your chain and sprockets will wear more rapidly. If you're running budget end Shimano then its cheap enough to replace, but Campagnolo Chorus cassettes (from memory) start at around 80 quid and Dura Ace, Sram Red and Record are significantly more than that. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
Quite right. It’s about perspective.
Can you answer Imposter's earlier question about the new quality assurances that you implied were a game changer for cross chaining please?0 -
I am just guessing here, but closer tolerances in manufacturing increase the timeline for wear to take effect, adoption of decreased manufacturing faults through the adoption of sigma six principles etc might be a reasonable example, although I wouldn't say much of this has happened post 2010, more post 20000
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Bumo_b wrote:I am just guessing here, but closer tolerances in manufacturing increase the timeline for wear to take effect, adoption of decreased manufacturing faults through the adoption of sigma six principles etc might be a reasonable example, although I wouldn't say much of this has happened post 2010, more post 2000
Leaving aside the fact that closer manufacturing tolerances being achieved over the last few years are largely untrue, bottom-muncher's point was actually about QA procedures. I'm interested to understand more about how QA procedures have enabled cross-chaining.0 -
Think it is more about error rates in manufacturing and how many of these "erroneous" objects leave the factory, the point being that you are less likely to have one of the "erroneous" chains on your bike when cross chaining. There have also been huge improvements in lean manufacturing principles in the last 10 years as well, especially from improvements in automated processes.0
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Bumo_b wrote:Think it is more about error rates in manufacturing and how many of these "erroneous" objects leave the factory, the point being that you are less likely to have one of the "erroneous" chains on your bike when cross chaining. There have also been huge improvements in lean manufacturing principles in the last 10 years as well, especially from improvements in automated processes.
Still not sure how valid any of that is. I've had a chain break once (a Wipperman chain, at the joining link) in 28 years of cycling and 40 years of motorcycling. Anyway, I'm looking forward to bottom muncher's explanation...0 -
I've not had KMC chain issues, although I regularly clean my chain. My two sons on the other hand use KMC chains which rarely see a degreaser or oil from one year to the next. Both recently had to replace chain, cassette and crank set, much to their annoyance and cost. My opinion is it relies as much on maintenance and lubricants as it does pure manufacturing tolerances.0
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Bumo_b wrote:Think it is more about error rates in manufacturing and how many of these "erroneous" objects leave the factory, the point being that you are less likely to have one of the "erroneous" chains on your bike when cross chaining. There have also been huge improvements in lean manufacturing principles in the last 10 years as well, especially from improvements in automated processes.
This may be true, but all things being equal, if you regularly cross chain then surely your chain and sprockets will wear out faster than if you don't, regardless of improvements in tolerances and manufacturing?0 -
Bumo_b wrote:I've not had KMC chain issues, although I regularly clean my chain. My two sons on the other hand use KMC chains which rarely see a degreaser or oil from one year to the next. Both recently had to replace chain, cassette and crank set, much to their annoyance and cost. My opinion is it relies as much on maintenance and lubricants as it does pure manufacturing tolerances.
Maintenance and use are obviously important factors to chain life but they have no bearing on the issue of cross chaining. What I would say is that I regularly hear of people getting less than a couple of thousand miles out of their chains and cassettes, all the more reason to take every reasonable precaution to extend their lifespan I would say.0 -
My experience is they will as well, ie both chains being equal in every aspect, the one cross chained will wear faster. That being said, improvements over the last decade or two mean they will survive it better than an older manufactured chain. On the other hand, a well looked after "old" chain will still survive better in my opinion than either of my two sons chains who seem to ignore my advice on care and cross chaining.0
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Shortfall wrote:Bumo_b wrote:Think it is more about error rates in manufacturing and how many of these "erroneous" objects leave the factory, the point being that you are less likely to have one of the "erroneous" chains on your bike when cross chaining. There have also been huge improvements in lean manufacturing principles in the last 10 years as well, especially from improvements in automated processes.
This may be true, but all things being equal, if you regularly cross chain then surely your chain and sprockets will wear out faster than if you don't, regardless of improvements in tolerances and manufacturing?
This.
And the reason why this is true is that the chain is under increased twisting load, load which is isnt designed to be most effective in.
No one is saying a short spell of crosschaining is going to be the end of the world, merely that the system is stressed more. More stress = less life span. its also less efficient.0 -
keef66 wrote:lettingthedaysgoby wrote:50/34 on the front, 11-32 on the back, eat less pies, ride up hills lots.
Sorted.
Have some compassion!
Eat fewer pies, or eat less pie, but not eat less pies.
It's like fingernails down a blackboard to a grammar pedant.
Thank you Keef. Keep it up.0
