Long Drop Brakes with Tiagra 4600 STIs

ayjaycee

I'm hoping to start a new build based on a 2017 Kinesis Racelight 4S frameset. As some may know, the frame can take either disc or rim brakes and, for the time being, I am going for the latter. Although I've got most of the parts, the things missing are long drop brake calipers. Bottom line is that I'm after the best out there and should be grateful for any recommendations from you clever people. They must be compatible with Shimano Tiagra 4600 STIs and FWIW I plan to fit them with some Swisstop BXP Blues.

Just one more thing, the correct answer does NOT begin with 'Tektro'.

BikerGroveish

ayjaycee wrote:

I'm hoping to start a new build based on a 2017 Kinesis Racelight 4S frameset. As some may know, the frame can take either disc or rim brakes and, for the time being, I am going for the latter. Although I've got most of the parts, the things missing are long drop brake calipers. Bottom line is that I'm after the best out there and should be grateful for any recommendations from you clever people. They must be compatible with Shimano Tiagra 4600 STIs and FWIW I plan to fit them with some Swisstop BXP Blues.

Just one more thing, the correct answer does NOT begin with 'Tektro'.

Are you using relatively small wheels, or is there any other compelling reason for having to go with long drop callipers? as this may limit your choices somewhat.

arlowood

Can't see past the Shimano R650. Have used them in the past and can't fault them (Ultegra quality)

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-r650-du ... 7993380010

Only seem to been available in silver/grey but you may be able to truffle out some black ones if that's what you need

ayjaycee

Biker, On wheels, I don't think so - bog standard Mavic Aksiums. I say long drop brakes as I believe they are what are needed for that particular frame and that I want to fit full mudguards as it will primarily be used in the winter.

ayjaycee

Arlo, Actually those R650s were my first thought as well but I wasn't sure that they were fully compatible with the Tiagra STIs (pull ratio etc.). Lack of black wouldn't be a major issue.

arlowood

ayjaycee wrote:

Arlo, Actually those R650s were my first thought as well but I wasn't sure that they were fully compatible with the Tiagra STIs (pull ratio etc.). Lack of black wouldn't be a major issue.

If you search for Shimano Groupset Compatibility Chart Tiagra 4600 you get a list of results one of which is a link to a PDF
entitled "compatibilty chart - Shimano Product Website" If you click on that it will download the following PDF -

productinfo.shimano.com/download/pdf/com/2.7/en

Scroll down to page C-456 and you'll see there that the 4600/R650 combo is described as "Braking power is slightly less than standard combination"

If it were me I wouldn't be that bothered

flasher

TRP RG957, better than my old R650's they come in black too which is a bonus.

williamac

Velo Orange Gran Cru. Think they come in both black and silver. A little pricy but they work really well

William

Bordersroadie

I've used r650 for years and the only sign of 6 salty winters is that the pivot bolts have rusted but nothing else on them. I've got a busy life so my winter bike gets its drivetrain cared for regularly but not much else.

Tektro brakes rust in lots of places after one winter, pivot bolts, cable securing nuts, springs, pad retaining nuts etc etc.

People rave about trp and other "premium" brands but I've not heard how well they cope in the rustproof department.

I'll be sticking with Shimano r650. They put up with real world neglect!

imposter2.0

BikerGroveish wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

I'm hoping to start a new build based on a 2017 Kinesis Racelight 4S frameset. As some may know, the frame can take either disc or rim brakes and, for the time being, I am going for the latter. Although I've got most of the parts, the things missing are long drop brake calipers. Bottom line is that I'm after the best out there and should be grateful for any recommendations from you clever people. They must be compatible with Shimano Tiagra 4600 STIs and FWIW I plan to fit them with some Swisstop BXP Blues.

Just one more thing, the correct answer does NOT begin with 'Tektro'.

Are you using relatively small wheels, or is there any other compelling reason for having to go with long drop callipers? as this may limit your choices somewhat.

Small wheels? What are you talking about? The frame takes 700c wheels with mudguard clearance, hence the 'compelling' need for long drop... :roll:

Anyway - back in the real world, Miche long-drop have served me well over the years...

clubsport

I have the R650 with BXP on a 4S with Ultegra 6800 & full SKS mudguards. They work fine once you use BXP instead of the brake material supplied!

BikerGroveish

ayjaycee wrote:

Biker, On wheels, I don't think so - bog standard Mavic Aksiums. I say long drop brakes as I believe they are what are needed for that particular frame and that I want to fit full mudguards as it will primarily be used in the winter.

Ah yes, mudguard clearance will typically need long drops.

imposter2.0

BikerGroveish wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

Biker, On wheels, I don't think so - bog standard Mavic Aksiums. I say long drop brakes as I believe they are what are needed for that particular frame and that I want to fit full mudguards as it will primarily be used in the winter.

Ah yes, mudguard clearance will typically need long drops.

Good insight..

keef66

Imposter wrote:

BikerGroveish wrote:

ayjaycee wrote:

Biker, On wheels, I don't think so - bog standard Mavic Aksiums. I say long drop brakes as I believe they are what are needed for that particular frame and that I want to fit full mudguards as it will primarily be used in the winter.

Ah yes, mudguard clearance will typically need long drops.

Good insight..

:roll:

keef66

Unless you're a Russian oligarch wanting to launder some money by buying the Velo Orange jobs, I don't think you can go wrong with the R650s.

I have the cheaper R450 long drop calipers on my Kinesis Tk. 11 (soft southern) winters on and they are still like new; pivots are smooth and there's barely a hint of corrosion. When it came time to replace the original all-in-one moulded blocks I 'upgraded' to 105 cartridges / holders. They are currently paired with Tiagra 4500 levers and before that 105 5600, and the braking has always been decent using the standard Shimano blocks on alu rims.

svetty

keef66 wrote:

and the braking has always been decent using the standard Shimano blocks on alu rims.

Absolutely - I really cannot understand why people spend more money on after-market pads - unless it's that the high price produces a confirmation bias effect that they are better. I once succumbed and bought the SS Blue BXP pads at £20 a set. They are no better than stock shimano pads apart from being slightly softer and hence have a vague sponginess to them when braking heavily.

keef66

The only startling improvement in braking was when I replaced Tiagra calipers / blocks with some 105 5800 calipers, both with standard Shimano blocks and operated by 5600 levers on my summer bike. I think the old lever / new caliper combination has better mechanical advantage; nearly put myself over the bars first time I tried them in anger.

When I first started frequenting the forum many moons ago all the talk was of KoolStop salmon inserts, and of Shimano ones eating rims and poor braking. I've always found the Shimano stuff to be pretty good. The 5800 calipers come with the very same inserts as Dura-Ace, and I can't see Shimano risking the reputation of their flagship product with inferior brake blocks...

Added to which, I have a real problem with the price of some of the aftermarket stuff. I can get a set of front pads for the wife's Ford for less than 4 tiny rubbery SwissStop jobs...

svetty

keef66 wrote:

The only startling improvement in braking was when I replaced Tiagra calipers / blocks with some 105 5800 calipers, both with standard Shimano blocks and operated by 5600 levers on my summer bike. I think the old lever / new caliper combination has better mechanical advantage; nearly put myself over the bars first time I tried them in anger.

When I first started frequenting the forum many moons ago all the talk was of KoolStop salmon inserts, and of Shimano ones eating rims and poor braking. I've always found the Shimano stuff to be pretty good. The 5800 calipers come with the very same inserts as Dura-Ace, and I can't see Shimano risking the reputation of their flagship product with inferior brake blocks...

Added to which, I have a real problem with the price of some of the aftermarket stuff. I can get a set of front pads for the wife's Ford for less than 4 tiny rubbery SwissStop jobs...

Completely agree - although I have to say that the latest generation Shimano brakes are even better. I bought an Ultegra gruppo for one of my bikes and was pleasantly surprised how well the brakes worked. They have changed to a slightly chunkier build which are a few grams heavier than the previous generation but they work even better. I'm now thinking of swapping out the DA9000s on my best bike for DA9100s. If I ebay the old ones it shouldn't cost too much overall.

ayjaycee

As I have already said, I'm very grateful for the advice thus far but if I had realised that we would start picking the scab off of the old brake pad argument again I might have thought twice about the original post. I'm now just glad I didn't expand on the possibility of fitting disc brakes instead of rim but maybe that will come next!

keef66

Nobody's arguing

MisterMuncher

The real can of worms is that R450 and R650 are the same castings/arms with different hardware and pads. You couldn't make 450's into 650's for the money, but if you had a pair of proper, shoed Shimano pads spare to fit to some 450, the gap is very narrow indeed.

Re: Pads. New Shimano stuff is very good indeed. SwissStop are a little better, and being softer, I use them on my pricy wheels. Not much difference in ultimate power, though.

keef66

MisterMuncher wrote:

You couldn't make 450's into 650's for the money, but if you had a pair of proper, shoed Shimano pads spare to fit to some 450, the gap is very narrow indeed.

Like my 450s + 5800 cartridges /holders

dazz_ni45

I will have a set of second hand TRP RG957 (shimano compatible) for sale if you want to PM me. I was going to advertise them this weekend once I removed them from the bike.

ayjaycee

dazz_ni45 wrote:

I will have a set of second hand TRP RG957 (shimano compatible) for sale if you want to PM me. I was going to advertise them this weekend once I removed them from the bike.

Dazz, I've PM'd you (I think!).

ayjaycee

Dazz, Did my PM sent at 1318 actually arrive with you as it seems to be stuck in my PM Outbox?

keef66

It'll appear in your outbox until he's read it

ayjaycee

Keef, Cheers for that - as you might gather, I'm not very familiar with this PM system!

keef66

It's not quite the same as WhatsApp

ayjaycee

Or even from the same decade!