Research Project: Where is the British e-Bike boom?
Comments
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Fenix wrote:It seems to be changing in London. Some people are smart. Once they realise that they can get to work quicker or cheaper by bike - then they'll go for it.
The congestion charge system I believe is a big contributor. I am not from London but when I needed to travel the vehicle method was simply too slow to get into the city centre.0 -
The Hundredth Idiot wrote:I'm quite tempted by an eBike so that I could do my very long (45 miles) commute almost every day rather than on occasion. I currently do it in a bit less than 3 hours on a non-assisted bike compared with about 1.5 hours on the train (including walking either end), so it would take longer but would be more pleasant bar the depths of winter (and perhaps even then).
The main thing stopping me is that technology is improving so quickly. Rather than a £3k bike with a 60 mile range now, wait 5 years and spend £1k on a bike with a 100 mile range (or something like that).
Another factor is the 15.5 mph max assist. As someone else said, I can average more than that now unassisted so, given the significant extra weight of an eBike, I would probably end up with a lower average speed on an eBike - faster up the hills but slower down hill and on the flat.
Remarkable, you commute 3 hours on a non-assisted bike? :shock:
Perfect response on speed, it is something that could have easily slipped under the radar in my survey.0 -
ManiaMuse wrote:As far as I can see, if you are even modestly fit, they offer little speed advantage over a normal bike unless:
- Your commute is particularly long or hilly
- You have health problems or injuries (dodgy knees etc)
- You want to be really annoying shoaling past other cyclists at traffic lights and then get in everyone's way when you peak at 15.5mph
- You are fat and lazy but don't want to ride a moped or motorcycle because you can't find leathers that will fit
They tend to be and look heavy and ugly and are surprisingly expensive. If you want speed and the ability to filter through traffic (although admittedly not quite as easily) then you might as well do your CBT and buy a moped for less (i.e. only £800 or so for a 50cc!) and be able to go at 28mph when the traffic is moving.
Many an e-bike have I taken smug satisfaction in scalping without breaking a sweat.
I have seen a couple of very dodgy BSO DIY converted bikes on my commute, one of which seems to manage easily over 30mph and looks very unstable with a car battery mounted on the rear pannier.
Personally I would not be in favour of increasing the assist limit going by the general standard of riding that E-bikes tend to attract in my experience (usually either completely oblivious or cycle courier reckless...)
Great response.
"You want to be really annoying shoaling past other cyclists at traffic lights and then get in everyone's way when you peak at 15.5mph"
There is a power-assist mode on the e-Bike which I believe sort of defeats the purpose of cycling for activity, yet one research indicates you get 'enough' physical activity, so its an interesting one.
It appears the ultra-cyclist community is not welcome to able-bodied and fit people using it, perhaps attacking their culture? I may have worded this wrong.
See this study, the second to last page, for negative perceptions on e-Bikes. Resonates with what you say!
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... eport.html0 -
veryslowtwitch wrote:Wow, lots of people think an ebike won't help them ride faster. I think they would. I've used a few legal ebikes and they totally crush normal bikes. And they put a huge smile on your face.
Anyone who thinks they can comfortably ride as fast as they would on even a legal ebike is either a pro cyclist or a fantasist. An extra 200-250 watts is awesome and transforming. That will at least double most rider's available power. It allows hugely faster hill climbing or a much easier ride without getting sweaty. Yes assistance stops at 25kph but I'll take that on a hill or with full panniers.
It's not just about raw speed either. Sometimes on a black night in the rain with seven miles uphill into a headwind remaining I'll be sitting at <20kph and would give anything for an extra few watts. I am passed by guys on legal ebikes in jeans. I am doing 250w, they must be on 400w and totally cruising. No contest. These bikes have a brilliant future as commuters, off-road, tourers, whatever, providing they are not crushed by laws. Cost per se is not the issue, its the old n+1 problem. Highly recommended. I'm looking at the eBrompton for a complete hoot. Come join the revolution.
Thank you for this response, I am not a cyclist so I did not know the extent to which normal cyclists can have the same speed as powered e-Bikes. Do you believe, or anyone else for that matter, that these inexperienced e-bike riders cruising past people who have been cycling for years is 'annoying', perhaps not appreciating the art of cycling?
I am sorry, please elaborate on the n+1 problem. I am unfamiliar with this.0 -
Fenix wrote:It's not all about speed. An ebike will let people get to work in a less sweaty state than a normal bike would. Or over a hill that would put some people off riding to work.
Those unrestricted ones need to be seized and crushed though. Dangerous.
The sweat factor has been stated on many occassions by respondents for why they do not use conventional bikes.0 -
t_savez wrote:...
I am sorry, please elaborate on the n+1 problem. I am unfamiliar with this.
N+1 is simply however many bikes you own, you always need or want another.I don't do smileys.
There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda
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Parktools0 -
not to be doom and gloom, the sweat factor is an excuse. remove that and there will be another. Unless parking is charged for everywhere at the true rate, even a work place car space is charged for (currently that organisations customers pay for staff parking), parking charges account for pollution and we go all Tokyo on this and don't even allow a log book unless there is an off road parking space (councils limit the number of car parking spaces in there area) there will be no culture shift away from the car. 97% of the time the average car is stationary.
I cite MAlta as an example. As a former uk colony they have a very U.K attitude to the car. Malta is gridlocked and the Maltese are not getting out of there cars. They sit in them all day now.http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.0 -
thecycleclinic wrote:not to be doom and gloom, the sweat factor is an excuse. remove that and there will be another. Unless parking is charged for everywhere at the true rate, even a work place car space is charged for (currently that organisations customers pay for staff parking), parking charges account for pollution and we go all Tokyo on this and don't even allow a log book unless there is an off road parking space (councils limit the number of car parking spaces in there area) there will be no culture shift away from the car. 97% of the time the average car is stationary.
I cite MAlta as an example. As a former uk colony they have a very U.K attitude to the car. Malta is gridlocked and the Maltese are not getting out of there cars. They sit in them all day now.
That is true, agreed.
However car restriciton policices are notoriously unpopular in the UK (see fuel duty tax 2000, congestion charges to be introduced in Manchester & Edinburgh rejected in public referendums). Not to say it isn't a good idea and practical, just there will be a lot to win over a public who rely so heavily on cars
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t_savez wrote:thecycleclinic wrote:not to be doom and gloom, the sweat factor is an excuse. remove that and there will be another. Unless parking is charged for everywhere at the true rate, even a work place car space is charged for (currently that organisations customers pay for staff parking), parking charges account for pollution and we go all Tokyo on this and don't even allow a log book unless there is an off road parking space (councils limit the number of car parking spaces in there area) there will be no culture shift away from the car. 97% of the time the average car is stationary.
I cite MAlta as an example. As a former uk colony they have a very U.K attitude to the car. Malta is gridlocked and the Maltese are not getting out of there cars. They sit in them all day now.
That is true, agreed.
However car restriciton policices are notoriously unpopular in the UK (see fuel duty tax 2000, congestion charges to be introduced in Manchester & Edinburgh rejected in public referendums). Not to say it isn't a good idea and practical, just there will be a lot to win over a public who rely so heavily on cars
I worked in a petrol station in the mid eighties. All the customers were going to stop driving when petrol hit a pound a gallon. Would like to know what figure people think they would tolerate now!0 -
greenamex2 wrote:I worked in a petrol station in the mid eighties. All the customers were going to stop driving when petrol hit a pound a gallon. Would like to know what figure people think they would tolerate now!
Creeping prices - it won't ever stop - and car usage will continue to grow as the population does.
I'm finding there's a growing number of people riding bikes for pleasure - people I've known for years suddenly come out of the woodwork - "do you ride too? Oh I didn't know that" - which is a good and bad thing - good because that means that a great number of the population will be sympathetic - not just the riders, but their family & friends - and colleagues too. Bad because it's more cyclists on the road that drivers get all upset about for no real reason than they are under the mistaken view that their journey is more important than anyone elses.
As for the commuting to work - the country is more mobile - a lot of people travel long distances to get to work - which, unless it's into a major city, is not conducive to commuting by bike. An e-bike may make shorter distances more manageable for some, but it's still 15mph average - eg 15 miles - 20-30 minutes by car - or an hour by e-Bike ... the car has to be made pretty unattractive to get people onto bikes instead.0 -
I think the comments on this forum probably tell us why cycling isnt as popular in Britain as it might be on the continent.
https://www.petrolprices.com/news/drivi ... eads-fine/
Is it possible the British are just dumb ? We seem to have a lot of evidence for this lately.0 -
Slowbike wrote:greenamex2 wrote:I worked in a petrol station in the mid eighties. All the customers were going to stop driving when petrol hit a pound a gallon. Would like to know what figure people think they would tolerate now!
Creeping prices - it won't ever stop - and car usage will continue to grow as the population does.
I'm finding there's a growing number of people riding bikes for pleasure - people I've known for years suddenly come out of the woodwork - "do you ride too? Oh I didn't know that" - which is a good and bad thing - good because that means that a great number of the population will be sympathetic - not just the riders, but their family & friends - and colleagues too. Bad because it's more cyclists on the road that drivers get all upset about for no real reason than they are under the mistaken view that their journey is more important than anyone elses.
As for the commuting to work - the country is more mobile - a lot of people travel long distances to get to work - which, unless it's into a major city, is not conducive to commuting by bike. An e-bike may make shorter distances more manageable for some, but it's still 15mph average - eg 15 miles - 20-30 minutes by car - or an hour by e-Bike ... the car has to be made pretty unattractive to get people onto bikes instead.
Bored at work -
A gallon of petrol in 1985 around £1.95. The current price for a gallon is about £5.91. And increase of 203.1%
The average UK wage in 1985 was £8,890. Today it is £27,271. So an increase of 206.7%
That really surprised me!
Really can't see a significant cost driver to push people away from cars based on fuel cost. Vehicle Excise Duty for most has probably changed by the same sort of percentages.
Looking at public transport, season ticket prices have also pretty much held level with inflation (yeah, I know single ticket prices have risen 2-3 times inflation but we are talking commuting regularly here).
So no cost driver to switch on that basis.
So what could ebike sellers target?
Convenience over other forms - As much as I love my cycle to work, driving would be a hell of a lot easier. However cycling is probably a preferable alternative to public transport for that particular journey. Gotta say, not seeing too many ebike adverts on the London trains and underground.
Health benefits - An electric motor contradicts this slightly, so would probably target those that would struggle to cycle like my wife...and trying to convince someone like that to spend £1000 on a low spec bike is going to be tricky, they would probably rather a gym membership they won't use (or both in my wife's case!).
Existing cyclists - Most "normal" cyclists seem quite happy with there current form of transport. Much simpler accessibility to try to an ebike on their commute would probably help...manufacture supported loan scheme?
Leisure use - Can see someone already into bikes buying N+1, but most people (re)starting in cycling is probably not to spend £1000 on a low spec bike. So you probably should be targeting the N+1 crowd. Funnily enough, the really obvious target is slower riders wanting to keep up with faster riders, for example my wife keeping up with the kids. Would say this would be a big market but trying to come up with a "politically correct" advert in today's society would be 'challenging'!0 -
Quoting from earlier: Thank you for this response, I am not a cyclist so I did not know the extent to which normal cyclists can have the same speed as powered e-Bikes. Do you believe, or anyone else for that matter, that these inexperienced e-bike riders cruising past people who have been cycling for years is 'annoying', perhaps not appreciating the art of cycling?
I am sorry, please elaborate on the n+1 problem. I am unfamiliar with this.[/quote]
Hi, I like being passed by ebikes because I can get a free draft.
Yes unpowered cyclists can ride as fast as ebikes but they have to work far harder for a given speed. Unpowered cyclists are not overall going to ride as fast as ebikers for the same effort. Looking at top speed alone is a distraction. These things are like the Terminator, they just keep going, with panniers, uphill, into headwind, doesn't matter. No-one on this forum can sustain the same power as an ebike plus rider. If they could they would be a professional bike racer.
There is no art in cycling, you just keep turning the pedals and whoever sustains the most power for longest gets there first.0 -
veryslowtwitch wrote:Quoting from earlier: Thank you for this response, I am not a cyclist so I did not know the extent to which normal cyclists can have the same speed as powered e-Bikes. Do you believe, or anyone else for that matter, that these inexperienced e-bike riders cruising past people who have been cycling for years is 'annoying', perhaps not appreciating the art of cycling?
I am sorry, please elaborate on the n+1 problem. I am unfamiliar with this.
Hi, I like being passed by ebikes because I can get a free draft.
Yes unpowered cyclists can ride as fast as ebikes but they have to work far harder for a given speed. Unpowered cyclists are not overall going to ride as fast as ebikers for the same effort. Looking at top speed alone is a distraction. These things are like the Terminator, they just keep going, with panniers, uphill, into headwind, doesn't matter. No-one on this forum can sustain the same power as an ebike plus rider. If they could they would be a professional bike racer.
There is no art in cycling, you just keep turning the pedals and whoever sustains the most power for longest gets there first.[/quote]
Below 15 mph yes but once above the assistance cuts out, on my commute which has narrow shared paths so I tend to keep the speed sub 15mph, the few E bikes do tend to pass me, but on bigger more open roads such as London Embankment, even though my commute bike is a heavy beast, it winds up to beyond assistance and most E-bikes fall behind quite quickly.0 -
If the 15mph were doubled to a 30 limit it might make sense. Even 25 would do. But 15 is just too slow. I can already ride that. Plus if I want to go really fast I take my motorbike as I already have a license for that. So what the point in buying something that can only do 30....no wait, 15 mph? Are the restrictors easy to bypass?0
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30 would be too fast - 20 would be reasonable - moderately fit riders can manage that - so it's only leveling the field.
Not sure how they restrict - they'd have to measure the speed - so if it's a hub motor then it'll need to know the wheel size - just tell it the wheel is smaller and you'll up the speed ... dunno how it works on the crank drives0 -
Done. Speaking as an expat, other than the cost of course, I reckon the main inhibiting factor is the ridiculously low speed cut off point. NZ has a 300 watt limit before you need registration etc, which in practice seems to work far better. Despite there being a far more pervasive car culture here, ebikes have absolutely exploded in the last couple of years. Some days I'm seeing more of them than I do regular bikes.0
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While I'm still capable of climbing some cat4 hills at more than a 15mph average, e-bikes don't appeal, but at some point in the near future my modest MAMIL talent will run out and my body will crumble.
In the meantime, I hope the tech, reliability and durability of the e-motors will improve... Hopefully without the price tag getting silly at the same time!================
2020 Voodoo Marasa
2017 Cube Attain GTC Pro Disc 2016
2016 Voodoo Wazoo0 -
As a Brit currently living in Switzerland with access to an E-bike let me answer the opposite question - why are e-bikes so popular in Europe - and you can hopefully draw some conclusions.
To begin with cycling on the roads with a 25km/h e-bike is not a super great experience as you want to go faster but when the motor cuts out it's really difficult to go any faster as the bike is so heavy and there is a little resistance from a mid-drive motor. However, they are great at accelerating away in traffic but as others have said you then get overtaken anyway once you hit your top speed.
This is not really a problem, however, as Switzerland has great cycling infrastructure and you can get very far on cycle paths alone. Because of this there is no pressure to ride fast (no cars forcing you to go fast) and most normal people ride at a speed between 15-20km/h on the cyclepaths. This is a pretty leisurely pace but means that e-bike are very suited to it with their 25km/h top speed.
I'm from East Anglia where hills are pretty rare but I'm surrounded by mountains right now and they can get very steep - riding an E-bike makes light work of them and I get around without breaking sweat. This is another point - having ridden to work on both a normal bike and an e-bike I was surprised how little I sweated on the e-bike, despite getting their in a faster time.
Switzerland also seems like a very safe country to be in - I see so many bikes just parked up and only locked through their back wheel with cheap locks. My colleagues have said that bike crime is very low around here and I don't really have much worry locking an e-bike up using just an Abus Bordo.
Finally when it comes to price everything in Switzerland is expensive but people seem to be very affluent (at least where I am staying) and so paying a few thousand dollars/Swiss Francs for an e-bike is not as large of an investment as in the U.K.
So to sum up: there are lots of hills; plenty of good cycle paths with people only riding around 20km/h; crime rates are low and there is much less worry about locking a bike up; there is plenty of money around, meaning people can afford more expensive bikes.0 -
I got a total of 135 participants over August, which is more than I expected. I have submitted my thesis, thank you all for helping. The following results from the survey are shown plus some interesting further analysis, but the conclusions to be drawn from this information to answer the research question should be carefully interpreted.
*It is a tedious process to upload several images on this forum, so to see the results please go to https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/resea ... 109/page-5 and see the last post*
Thank you again.0 -
I have a feeling the shit is about to hit fan with e-bikes in the UK, an increase in negative media coverage of them would suggest that something is about to kick off, maybe mandatory insurance, tax and reg plates?
Govt wants us to be green, but only as long as we pay tax for it.0
