Trail centres verse natural trails

James7906

People's opinion please, as mountain bikers are we losing our riding skills by going to trail centres instead of going out and riding natural trails.?

CitizenLee

Only if you only ride trail centres.

It's nice to mix things up.

tallpaul_s

James7906 wrote:

People's opinion please, as mountain bikers are we losing our riding skills by going to trail centres instead of going out and riding natural trails.?

You could also say it's the other way around - my local trails are basically unridable through winter, they're just a wet boggy muddy slip-fest. If it wasn't for trailcentres with year round ridable trails I probably wouldn't ride that much during winter, which would see me lose my riding skills.

Also, natural trails vary massively. If you live in a decent area, say Scotland or yorkshire or the laks etc then you'll be blessed with loads of awesome natural trails. I live in Kent, and there are some decent 'natural' trails but if actually want to ride decent trails where I know I'll have fun then trail centres are fine. Trail centres also vary hugely with difficulty.

So, in a word... no.

cooldad

Depends whether you had any skills to start off with.

James7906

Yes I can see your point Tallpaul_s, I do mix it up a little TC and natural, just find a lot of people at TC strava hunt and natural trail when wet make you think a lot.

figbat

I wonder how we measure our level of 'skill' as a collective? I only ride natural trails and always manage to get through them, but have no idea how skilful I am on an objective level nor how I might find out.

James7906

figbat wrote:

I wonder how we measure our level of 'skill' as a collective? I only ride natural trails and always manage to get through them, but have no idea how skilful I am on an objective level nor how I might find out.

Not sure, because I can't do that 30 foot gap jump does that mean I'm a novice rider?

CitizenLee

James7906 wrote:

Not sure, because I can't do that 30 foot gap jump does that mean I'm a novice rider?

Not really. You could be an expert in one discipline but a rookie in another.

I'd probably hit the gap jump for example, but 9 out 10 XC guys would beat me back to the top

cooldad

James7906 wrote:

figbat wrote:

I wonder how we measure our level of 'skill' as a collective? I only ride natural trails and always manage to get through them, but have no idea how skilful I am on an objective level nor how I might find out.

Not sure, because I can't do that 30 foot gap jump does that mean I'm a novice rider?

Nope, just a pussy.

ps. I am the queen of all the pussies.

steve_sordy

James7906 wrote:

People's opinion please, as mountain bikers are we losing our riding skills by going to trail centres instead of going out and riding natural trails.?

It depends. Are you using "natural trails" as a euphemism for hard, and "trail centres" as a euphemism for easy?

What matters is whether you are developing skills and fitness. You may say that you can do that anywhere, but trail centres have a it all ready made, on a plate as it were. I guess trail centre riders are being spoiled. But I don't believe that they are losing their skills necessarily. It is possible that BECAUSE they have it all on tap, they are able to develop their skills faster than can natural trail riders.

I have just had a day at Bike Park Wales with my 10-year old grandson. He was able to get in more riding that thrilled him in one day than he could have got on natural trails. And it was on trails who's difficulty I was familiar with because they had been graded. So I was more confident that I wasn't going to be taking him home broken.

James7906

steve_sordy wrote:

James7906 wrote:

People's opinion please, as mountain bikers are we losing our riding skills by going to trail centres instead of going out and riding natural trails.?

It depends. Are you using "natural trails" as a euphemism for hard, and "trail centres" as a euphemism for easy?

What matters is whether you are developing skills and fitness. You may say that you can do that anywhere, but trail centres have a it all ready made, on a plate as it were. I guess trail centre riders are being spoiled. But I don't believe that they are losing their skills necessarily. It is possible that BECAUSE they have it all on tap, they are able to develop their skills faster than can natural trail riders.

I have just had a day at Bike Park Wales with my 10-year old grandson. He was able to get in more riding that thrilled him in one day than he could have got on natural trails. And it was on trails who's difficulty I was familiar with because they had been graded. So I was more confident that I wasn't going to be taking him home broken.

don't get me wrong BPW is amazing the buzz of down hill is fun, as you say it's there on a plate more times you ride it will it get boring, you know every pot hole, rock, root and berm.

johnmcl7

I primarily ride natural trails and only occasionally go to trail centres but I don't understand why trail centres would mean losing riding skills as I find it's the opposite. The structured layout of the trail centre and the consistency of the different trails makes it easier for me to work on improving technical skills

James7906

Johnmcl7 wrote:

I primarily ride natural trails and only occasionally go to trail centres but I don't understand why trail centres would mean losing riding skills as I find it's the opposite. The structured layout of the trail centre and the consistency of the different trails makes it easier for me to work on improving technical skills

yes I can see your point do one technical point move to the next technical area work on that one, I've done some skill courses one at a trail centre, where we just kept doing it over and over and another on natural trail where we found technical area and linked them all up.

The Rookie

Trouble is there are trail centres and trail centres, some trail centres have trails much like natural trails (with just a bit of extra robustness built in for durability) with a few unnatural tech sections, Sherwood Pines for example, or perhaps Hicks lodge, others are nothing like.....

steve_sordy

The Rookie wrote:

Trouble is there are trail centres and trail centres, some trail centres have trails much like natural trails (with just a bit of extra robustness built in for durability) with a few unnatural tech sections, Sherwood Pines for example, or perhaps Hicks lodge, others are nothing like.....

Sherwood Pines is much underrated, because of its geography I suppose. But it has loads of more challenging off-piste trails. And if you cross over the old railway line, it has some really steep hills. On the last guided ride I ran, we did over 1300 feet of climbing in 13 miles. Not the Peak District for sure, but it is not flat! I once hosted a guy whose local was Dalby Forest and he had been slagging off PInes despite the fact that he had never been. I sent him home in a bin bag.

Long_Time_Lurker

Will always gravitate to natural trails - but will still ride at trail centres if friends are heading to one.
The thrill of finding new routes, getting lost and exploring is part of what I have always enjoyed. That is completely lost at a trail centre.

As for skills - they haven't improved in the last 10 years (nor am I looking to do so). At my age and with my fragile knees/ankles, I'm happy to finish a ride with only a few scratches from some bushes. I'm no longer looking for the competition or an adrenaline rush.

billycool

The nature of MTB has changed a lot in the last 20 years; XC, Enduro, AM, DH etc. The term `MTB` now covers several different disciplines, with their own terrain, style of bike (I know some cross over) and additional kit.

If you mean the more `traditional` XC MTB - then yes, it has evolved from what it used to be. Back in the day (I'm talking early 90's), we had fully rigid bikes and then the novelty of front suspension. Most MTB `trails` were what you carved out of the local woods, bridle paths or trips to the Peaks/Lakes/Wales etc. That has evolved in many places into more man made routes. The development and investment into MTB can only be a good thing.

The off-shoots of DH, Enduro etc means that there are now MTB riders who either don't pedal uphill much, ride only a DH rig with uplift services etc. They may never have seen the XC trails that we talk of, but that's because it may not appeal to them. They jump and get airborne in a way that gives me cold sweats. Each to their own.

MTB does seem to have developed in a way that unless you have a big 140mm+ bike and ride drop-offs , gaps, jumps and break something (you or the bike) on a regaular basis, then you aren't a proper mountain biker. The more traditional XC single track seems to be reserved for old folk who like a bit of leisure riding at the weekend and can't handle too much excitement because we have weak bladders. I beg to differ but it really is down to what floats your boat.

MTB is what you want it to be. I do agree that some base skills are probably being lost and some riders could benefit from them. I do see some nice FS bikes steamrolling trails with a `passenger` on board. I would argue that the bike isn't acutally being ridden. I learnt on fully rigid and then HT's for 20+ years. It suited the terrain I rode and there was a 10 year sabbatical somewhere in the middle. I never thought FS would be necessary for the terrain I rode. I bought my latest HT in 2006 and still use it (it's a bit like Triggers broom - only the frame and forks are original). Admittedly a HT can cope with what I usually do, but a FS does allow me to ride some parts (the more lumpy or DH bits) quicker and with more whoop factor.

Having said that, after 2 trips to BPW, Cwmcarn and Afan on my HT and then trying a FS bike, I was converted. I now have both and use my FS for the rough stuff and still love riding my HT on singletrack etc. A HT gives great speed sensation, gets the power down and needs to be ridden differently. You have to plan ahead a bit more and anticiapte the back end being more playful. I think loads of riders can benefit from starting on a HT. Not necessarily because they can't ride a bike but because they'd enjoy it more. FS bikes can (at times) can de-sensitise you and make the whole thing a bit sterile. I see folk on nice bikes who aren't getting the best out of them.

Trails centres have their place and are maybe more appealling to newer/younger riders. As an old git, I've scared myself a few times and it certainly makes you feel alive. I had a lot of fun/fear at the same time. You get a lot of smiles for miles and quite an adrenaline hit and some the `kids` I've seen are very talented. I've learnt new things riding them (mainly fear and a newly ehanced sense of self-preservation). Even then, BPW is very different to Cannock. I've done both on a HT but FS was more fun.

I think lot of people judge their enjoyment by whoop factor10 and not `oh look at the view`. In that respect, natural trails may be less appealing.

It is horse for courses and it's hard to judge MTB as a whole, but for the maybe the more traditional XC type riding, some skills are being overlooked. I suppose that with the new breed of trails/bikes/`youth`, you get different skills that I'm not even close to mastering.

Maybe some of us are getting old and like to remember the good old days when we could track stand, bunny hop roots and do steep decents at walking pace, rather than hooning down a hill at light speed because you were more likely to go OTB.

As had also been said - winter riding can limit some peoples access to the natural stuff. Some people don't like pedalling and others just want to jump and jump a bit more. Arguably, natural trails and trail centres require different skills and as long as people are having fun, it probably doesn't matter.

Maybe in a few years time, when I'm tearing round Cannock on my e-bike, I'll be shouting at all the other riders that they need to learn to ride properly, like I had to, and they'll all tell me to `f*ck off you old git`.

steve_sordy

James7906 wrote:

............................ don't get me wrong BPW is amazing the buzz of down hill is fun, as you say it's there on a plate more times you ride it will it get boring, you know every pot hole, rock, root and berm.

James, are you saying that Trail Centre riders ride the same exact trails every time? Or that the trails stay the same? Or that the weather and wear & tear have no impact?

The Sherwood Pines trails have been heavily changed over the time I have been riding them (and the red & blue are about to change again). And that is just the route and the trail features. In addition, the trail centre team have a desire to improve the trails they manage. Weather alters the challenges, as does the impact of other riders. Nature has a way of changing the trails too, foliage growth, roots, mud, ice and so forth. I have occasionally been caught out on trails I ride regularly and ended up with an involuntary dismount!

I'm sure that this is true for pretty much all trail centres. There are so many that you don't need to do the same ones over and over again, unless you want to of course.

roger_merriman

CitizenLee wrote:

James7906 wrote:

Not sure, because I can't do that 30 foot gap jump does that mean I'm a novice rider?

Not really. You could be an expert in one discipline but a rookie in another.

I'd probably hit the gap jump for example, but 9 out 10 XC guys would beat me back to the top

Give me a technical climb and I’m a happy bunny, but I hate jumps even drop offs which is probably because I’m used to natural stuff. I’m fine with that since Go for what you enjoy.

kajjal

Trail centres tend to be more convenient with marked graded, cars parks and cafes. They also tend to have more all weather trails. Natural trails are not designed to be ridden offering a different challenge and often are not in forestry areas offering more variety.

James7906

steve_sordy wrote:

James7906 wrote:

............................ don't get me wrong BPW is amazing the buzz of down hill is fun, as you say it's there on a plate more times you ride it will it get boring, you know every pot hole, rock, root and berm.

James, are you saying that Trail Centre riders ride the same exact trails every time? Or that the trails stay the same? Or that the weather and wear & tear have no impact?

The Sherwood Pines trails have been heavily changed over the time I have been riding them (and the red & blue are about to change again). And that is just the route and the trail features. In addition, the trail centre team have a desire to improve the trails they manage. Weather alters the challenges, as does the impact of other riders. Nature has a way of changing the trails too, foliage growth, roots, mud, ice and so forth. I have occasionally been caught out on trails I ride regularly and ended up with an involuntary dismount!

I'm sure that this is true for pretty much all trail centres. There are so many that you don't need to do the same ones over and over again, unless you want to of course.

Haven't rode sherwood pine so can't comment on it. I just no mtb rider's who ride forest of Dean and swinley forest a lot and they know everything about cycling but take them out of there comfort zone as in woodlands, bridleways that haven't got a natural path and they lose the ability to ride a bike.

James7906

BillyCool wrote:

The nature of MTB has changed a lot in the last 20 years; XC, Enduro, AM, DH etc. The term `MTB` now covers several different disciplines, with their own terrain, style of bike (I know some cross over) and additional kit.

If you mean the more `traditional` XC MTB - then yes, it has evolved from what it used to be. Back in the day (I'm talking early 90's), we had fully rigid bikes and then the novelty of front suspension. Most MTB `trails` were what you carved out of the local woods, bridle paths or trips to the Peaks/Lakes/Wales etc. That has evolved in many places into more man made routes. The development and investment into MTB can only be a good thing.

The off-shoots of DH, Enduro etc means that there are now MTB riders who either don't pedal uphill much, ride only a DH rig with uplift services etc. They may never have seen the XC trails that we talk of, but that's because it may not appeal to them. They jump and get airborne in a way that gives me cold sweats. Each to their own.

MTB does seem to have developed in a way that unless you have a big 140mm+ bike and ride drop-offs , gaps, jumps and break something (you or the bike) on a regaular basis, then you aren't a proper mountain biker. The more traditional XC single track seems to be reserved for old folk who like a bit of leisure riding at the weekend and can't handle too much excitement because we have weak bladders. I beg to differ but it really is down to what floats your boat.

MTB is what you want it to be. I do agree that some base skills are probably being lost and some riders could benefit from them. I do see some nice FS bikes steamrolling trails with a `passenger` on board. I would argue that the bike isn't acutally being ridden. I learnt on fully rigid and then HT's for 20+ years. It suited the terrain I rode and there was a 10 year sabbatical somewhere in the middle. I never thought FS would be necessary for the terrain I rode. I bought my latest HT in 2006 and still use it (it's a bit like Triggers broom - only the frame and forks are original). Admittedly a HT can cope with what I usually do, but a FS does allow me to ride some parts (the more lumpy or DH bits) quicker and with more whoop factor.

Having said that, after 2 trips to BPW, Cwmcarn and Afan on my HT and then trying a FS bike, I was converted. I now have both and use my FS for the rough stuff and still love riding my HT on singletrack etc. A HT gives great speed sensation, gets the power down and needs to be ridden differently. You have to plan ahead a bit more and anticiapte the back end being more playful. I think loads of riders can benefit from starting on a HT. Not necessarily because they can't ride a bike but because they'd enjoy it more. FS bikes can (at times) can de-sensitise you and make the whole thing a bit sterile. I see folk on nice bikes who aren't getting the best out of them.

Trails centres have their place and are maybe more appealling to newer/younger riders. As an old git, I've scared myself a few times and it certainly makes you feel alive. I had a lot of fun/fear at the same time. You get a lot of smiles for miles and quite an adrenaline hit and some the `kids` I've seen are very talented. I've learnt new things riding them (mainly fear and a newly ehanced sense of self-preservation). Even then, BPW is very different to Cannock. I've done both on a HT but FS was more fun.

I think lot of people judge their enjoyment by whoop factor10 and not `oh look at the view`. In that respect, natural trails may be less appealing.

It is horse for courses and it's hard to judge MTB as a whole, but for the maybe the more traditional XC type riding, some skills are being overlooked. I suppose that with the new breed of trails/bikes/`youth`, you get different skills that I'm not even close to mastering.

Maybe some of us are getting old and like to remember the good old days when we could track stand, bunny hop roots and do steep decents at walking pace, rather than hooning down a hill at light speed because you were more likely to go OTB.

As had also been said - winter riding can limit some peoples access to the natural stuff. Some people don't like pedalling and others just want to jump and jump a bit more. Arguably, natural trails and trail centres require different skills and as long as people are having fun, it probably doesn't matter.

Maybe in a few years time, when I'm tearing round Cannock on my e-bike, I'll be shouting at all the other riders that they need to learn to ride properly, like I had to, and they'll all tell me to `f*ck off you old git`.

can't agree with you more, start on a HT and work your way up to a FS, don't just jump on a FS and let the bike do the work.

cycleclinic

I like going up more than going down. Shame there not much up in Suffolk.

headlong

I suppose the OP was about technical riding skills, but where I do think the trail-centre-only people are losing out is the skills the rest of us need to design / plan / navigate / improvise a ride - the ability to read an OS map and assess what looks worth investigating, and the sense of adventure of exploring something new, without coloured arrows on posts to direct you at every corner.

Sure, this approach has mixed results: for every cracking new trail you find, there's an abortive trip down a nettlefest to nowhere that leads to a u-turn and a forced change of plan. But I kinda like that - the memorable days out are usually the ones where something went wrong anyway.

steve_sordy

headlong wrote:

........... but where I do think the trail-centre-only people are losing out is the skills the rest of us need to design / plan / navigate / improvise a ride - the ability to read an OS map and assess what looks worth investigating, and the sense of adventure of exploring something new, without coloured arrows on posts to direct you at every corner.

Sure, this approach has mixed results: for every cracking new trail you find, there's an abortive trip down a nettlefest to nowhere that leads to a u-turn and a forced change of plan. But I kinda like that - the memorable days out are usually the ones where something went wrong anyway.

I live in the countryside and before I even started mtb, I was into using the 1" to 2.5 miles scale OS map of my local area to see what I could ride. I went out one day without it and just followed my nose. I got a bit lost for a while. Not totally lost because I knew where I was to within a mile or two, just never been there before, not sure whether to go left or right etc.
Railway crossings, sewage farms, tunnels, rivers, bridges, farm yards, swarms of flies, bramble fields, ruts to lose a bike in..... Eventually found my way home after 16 miles. Pretty much every summer since then, I've done that route at least once. Not because it is an mtb rider's dream trail but because it is a nice enjoyable way to kill a couple of hours or less. All without having to get the car out either. I broke my first mtb helmet on that route! I still bear the scars on my knees and elbows; yep, a proper superman onto cinders! :shock:

slc123

Part of mountain biking for me is about exploring and finding new trails, even if it’s a short new little run it’s always exciting. For me riding doesn’t have to be about always doing technical stuff. Don’t get me wrong the bike parks are a hell of a lot of fun and I love going but it’s nice to ride natural trails.

As for skills I think it’s important to ride both as trail centres give you certain skills and natural trails others. Sometimes elements of the natural trails can be really tough because of the unknown and unexpected.

kirkymtb

My local mini tail centre (man made trails but no café) is easy to ride a lap without putting a foot down. Plenty of our natural trails are seriously hard to ride without stopping and it's a thrill when you manage it. Trail centres offer non of this. Berms on every corner mean you never learn to control a slide, another skill you'll learn in a natural environment. Having said that I like both natural and TC and often mix my rides.