What’s next for Team Sky?

The Nodder

I think some of the comments on this thread overestimate how much PR strategies can achieve. Brailsford is very good at PR, and die-hard cycling fans are not his audience. Apart from his debut season and the two crash years he has dominated the Tour. It is unrealistic to expect any team to achieve that level of success without frequent doping allegations, given cycling’s history. Similarly a focus on the Tour and subsequent success will always attract non-doping hatred – most of the criticism of US Postal at the time from rivals, the press or the public had nothing to do with doping. If one team dominates the cash cow it harms all of cycling – other teams find it harder to get sponsors.

In those areas Brailsford can influence, he has (or the team he works with have) consistently shown good PR skills. From the infamous “round wheels” of British Cycling to dumping misleading nutrition information days before the Tour to encourage rivals to under-feed, he has controlled some media stories for his team’s benefit. He picks public fights with carefully chosen opponents, as with Lappartient – bated him then let him dig his own hole.

Where he has failed to control doping stories it is because those are hard to control in cycling, not because of his deficiencies. A rare success, although Brailsford was no longer involved, was the Rio Olympics when the track team was showing signs of their customary dominance despite underperforming since 2012 and in the heat of the moment disappointed rivals were starting to make dark innuendoes about drugs so the team came out with the famous pubic hair story. Devastatingly effective media distraction. He just needs an equivalent for men’s cycling…

RichN95.

The Nodder wrote:

I think some of the comments on this thread overestimate how much PR strategies can achieve. Brailsford is very good at PR, and die-hard cycling fans are not his audience.

Simple strategy - when in France let the Frenchman (Portal) do most of the talking.

m.r.m.

The Nodder wrote:

I think some of the comments on this thread overestimate how much PR strategies can achieve. Brailsford is very good at PR, and die-hard cycling fans are not his audience. Apart from his debut season and the two crash years he has dominated the Tour. It is unrealistic to expect any team to achieve that level of success without frequent doping allegations, given cycling’s history. Similarly a focus on the Tour and subsequent success will always attract non-doping hatred – most of the criticism of US Postal at the time from rivals, the press or the public had nothing to do with doping. If one team dominates the cash cow it harms all of cycling – other teams find it harder to get sponsors.

In those areas Brailsford can influence, he has (or the team he works with have) consistently shown good PR skills. From the infamous “round wheels” of British Cycling to dumping misleading nutrition information days before the Tour to encourage rivals to under-feed, he has controlled some media stories for his team’s benefit. He picks public fights with carefully chosen opponents, as with Lappartient – bated him then let him dig his own hole.

Where he has failed to control doping stories it is because those are hard to control in cycling, not because of his deficiencies. A rare success, although Brailsford was no longer involved, was the Rio Olympics when the track team was showing signs of their customary dominance despite underperforming since 2012 and in the heat of the moment disappointed rivals were starting to make dark innuendoes about drugs so the team came out with the famous pubic hair story. Devastatingly effective media distraction. He just needs an equivalent for men’s cycling…

Really good points. I don't entirely agree, because I do agree with Rich as well that Brailsford's strategy of deflecting controversy on himself ala Ferguson or Mourinho isn't working, but you raise many very valid points!

StillGoing

RichN95 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

Friebe was at the team presentation and asked a French lady "Vous avez siffler Froome? Pourquoi?" and she said "Because of the cheating. The Ventolin".

Maybe Jiffy bags didn't travel over there but Salbutamol did. Granted it will also be in a large part due to the winning, but they listened to Le Monde, Christophe Prudhomme and David Lappartient telling them they had reservations over Froome's credibility and decided he needed to be booed.

The man is an utter joke IMO. Sympathy for the legal battle he had with Armstrong and admiration for his cycling success, but, his venom towards Froome is just conjecture without substance and a vane effort to try and keep his name in the limelight.

I think he means Le Monde the newspaper

Oh well, Lemond has equally been stirring shit where none exists though.

salsiccia1

philthy3 wrote:

Oh well, Lemond has equally been stirring shoot where none exists though.

In fairness to LeMond, he's been damaged more than most by the EPO era in many different ways. I can understand his scepticism and caution, much more than a pissed-up prick on the side of the road or an ambitious gutter journalist (I'm looking at you, Roan).

jwa581

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

hypster

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

Matthewfalle

hypster wrote:

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

did anyone think froome was good enough when he was getting middle of nowhere placings years ago?

perhaps brailsfords methods could work on someone else?

onyourright

hypster wrote:

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

Come on, now. France is overflowing with young cycling talent. I live here and see it. The problem may be that the institutions for developing that talent into world-beaters are old-fashioned, unconcerned with results (i.e. success), and not able to compete with the rationalised systems that Australia and then the UK put in place in the last couple of decades. Similar problems exist in Italy, another old cycling nation that doesn’t punch its weight any more.

The woolly thinking and lack of rigour exhibited by Lappartient and Prudhomme over the Froome case encapsulate the problem. These privileged men are rewarded with success for lazy thinking, populist nonsense, and basically corruption.

RichN95.

OnYourRight wrote:

hypster wrote:

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

Come on, now. France is overflowing with young cycling talent. I live here and see it. The problem may be that the institutions for developing that talent into world-beaters are old-fashioned, unconcerned with results (i.e. success), and not able to compete with the rationalised systems that Australia and then the UK put in place in the last couple of decades. Similar problems exist in Italy, another old cycling nation that doesn’t punch its weight any more.

If France wants to produce a winner it either needs to break-up the complacent cartel of four French teams that has existed for twenty years, or send their talent to foreign teams. It's no surprise that the most successful French rider at the moment rides for a non-French team.

blazing_saddles

Matthewfalle wrote:

hypster wrote:

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

did anyone think froome was good enough when he was getting middle of nowhere placings years ago?

perhaps brailsfords methods could work on someone else?

Latour would be a descent bet. He could certainly stand to lose a couple of kilo.
He can climb, time trial and already has an ugly as sin style on the bike.

yorkshireraw

I wouldn't give up on Pinot as having the potential in a Sky-like set up. Main thing would appear to be keeping him healthy and fluffing his fragile ego. He's got the ability and his TTing has come on a fair bit with focus on it (looking at you Bardet...).
Admittedly he isn't the best bet Sky could have for a tour win in 5 years time, so unless Dave B wanted to be very naughty and wind up the french by producing a French winner and causing Hinault to self-combust, I'd imagine his LT plan is a 21 year Colombian currently on his team already.

RichN95.

YorkshireRaw wrote:

I wouldn't give up on Pinot as having the potential in a Sky-like set up. Main thing would appear to be keeping him healthy and fluffing his fragile ego. He's got the ability and his TTing has come on a fair bit with focus on it (looking at you Bardet...).
Admittedly he isn't the best bet Sky could have for a tour win in 5 years time, so unless Dave B wanted to be very naughty and wind up the french by producing a French winner and causing Hinault to self-combust, I'd imagine his LT plan is a 21 year Colombian currently on his team already.

Sky have looked hard at Pinot and they were rumours that they are still looking. His issues seem to be mental as much as anything. I can't image Marc Madiot's management style is helpful for him. He seems to thrive outside France when Madiot is absent.

jwa581

YorkshireRaw wrote:

I wouldn't give up on Pinot as having the potential in a Sky-like set up. Main thing would appear to be keeping him healthy and fluffing his fragile ego. He's got the ability and his TTing has come on a fair bit with focus on it (looking at you Bardet...).
Admittedly he isn't the best bet Sky could have for a tour win in 5 years time, so unless Dave B wanted to be very naughty and wind up the french by producing a French winner and causing Hinault to self-combust, I'd imagine his LT plan is a 21 year Colombian currently on his team already.

This may well be the issue. When you look at the potential in Bernal Vs peanut then it's difficult to make a case for Pinot at Sky. Also have Teo GH as well.

DeVlaeminck

You wonder if Allaphilippe couldn't ride for GC after his performances this year. Not suggesting he'd have a chance as is but presumably there would be improvement to be had if he focused on grand tours and he was outclimbing some good riders this year despite being very active in the race.

Pross

DeVlaeminck wrote:

You wonder if Allaphilippe couldn't ride for GC after his performances this year. Not suggesting he'd have a chance as is but presumably there would be improvement to be had if he focused on grand tours and he was outclimbing some good riders this year despite being very active in the race.

I think he’s capable but from some comments I read during the Tour it sounds like he’s not great at riding with his head. Also, I get the feeling a lot of French riders shy away from the pressure of being a GT contender, look how quickly Rolland, Pinot and Barguil have gone down the stage hunter / KoM route when they looked like contenders.

No_Ta_Doctor

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

You wonder if Allaphilippe couldn't ride for GC after his performances this year. Not suggesting he'd have a chance as is but presumably there would be improvement to be had if he focused on grand tours and he was outclimbing some good riders this year despite being very active in the race.

I think he’s capable but from some comments I read during the Tour it sounds like he’s not great at riding with his head. Also, I get the feeling a lot of French riders shy away from the pressure of being a GT contender, look how quickly Rolland, Pinot and Barguil have gone down the stage hunter / KoM route when they looked like contenders.

It was Brian Holm, his DS, that made those comments. He said on one stage they were on a long flat stretch between two climbs and Alaphilippe cae over the radio"I'm gonna attack" and had to be talked out of it Holm also had to talk him into not waiting for Yates when he crashed, which is all very noble, but bloody stupid.

mouth

OnYourRight wrote:

The problem may be that the institutions for developing that talent into world-beaters are old-fashioned, unconcerned with results (i.e. success), and not able to compete with the rationalised systems that Australia and then the UK put in place in the last couple of decades. Similar problems exist in Italy, another old cycling nation that doesn’t punch its weight any more.

Is it a surprise that the most successful Tour team was something new from the offset? A new approach, new ideas and new ways of thinking?

Take a look at Toronto Wolf Pack and Las Vegas Golden Knights for now success stories, kicked off using existing people and new ideas.

DeVlaeminck

No tA Doctor wrote:

Pross wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

You wonder if Allaphilippe couldn't ride for GC after his performances this year. Not suggesting he'd have a chance as is but presumably there would be improvement to be had if he focused on grand tours and he was outclimbing some good riders this year despite being very active in the race.

I think he’s capable but from some comments I read during the Tour it sounds like he’s not great at riding with his head. Also, I get the feeling a lot of French riders shy away from the pressure of being a GT contender, look how quickly Rolland, Pinot and Barguil have gone down the stage hunter / KoM route when they looked like contenders.

It was Brian Holm, his DS, that made those comments. He said on one stage they were on a long flat stretch between two climbs and Alaphilippe cae over the radio"I'm gonna attack" and had to be talked out of it Holm also had to talk him into not waiting for Yates when he crashed, which is all very noble, but bloody stupid.

I hadn't read that, good on him. To be fair if he'd waited he'd still have outsprinted him - I'm assuming Yates would have been good enough to do turns - and Allaphilippe would not only win the stage and look like the ultimate sportsman.

knedlicky

RichN95 wrote:

...TUEs, Jiffy bags and Commons Select Committee reports. But those stories really didn't cross the Channel. They were big stories in UK sports media circles, but the average French fan doesn't know the opinions of Mps.

These stories did get in the French media I saw, if only as passing commentary, like in a recent article about Lieuwe Westra and his private cortisone taking (in the Liberation newspaper).
Evenso, my impression is that, on the whole, French cycling fans (as opposed to some elements of the French general public who only follow the Tour) admire Sky and don't think there was any cheating going on with Froome's Salbutamol values.

Following the article on Westra, a couple of weeks later Liberation then had an article on Froome, but not about the Salbutamol business, rather looking back at the rapid change in performance he underwent in late 2011.
I remember at the time, some posters on this forum expressing great surprise at Froome's contesting the red jersey in Spain that year - up till then it was only Cav and Wiggins in Brits' minds.

According to Liberation (and new to me), before the 2011 Vuelta, Brailsford was thinking of shipping Froome out to Radioshack, while Froome, suspecting he was going to get the push, spoke with Bjarne Rijs about joining Saxo-Bank (what a combination that may have turned out).

As most know, Froome later claimed in 2010 he contracted a parasite in Kenya, and that caused his poor performances in 2010/2011, but according to Liberation, the problem wasn't properly treated until 2013, so the newspaper wondered what he was doing inbetween, when his performances markedly improved. The newspaper didn't actually say so, but it was clear they were wondering if he did the same as Westra.
(Liberation does seem to have a bee in its bonnet about Froome, though)

knedlicky

YorkshireRaw wrote:

I wouldn't give up on Pinot as having the potential in a Sky-like set up.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Latour would be a descent bet.

I doubt Sky will ever take a Frenchman as team leader.*
I can imagine part of Brailsford's contract with Murdoch includes that the Tour leader has to be a rider who fits the anglophone world, so a Brit, Aussie, Canadian, etc, or at least someone with whom Brits can easily identify. Thus maybe, like a couple of other posters have suggested, it could be Rohan Dennis next.
Or a George Bennett anyone?

*
On the other hand, with Sky subscribers being virtually non-existent in France (55% of subscribers are Brits, the rest mostly Italians and Germans), maybe it is the way for Sky to go, to extend their market.

If it turned out Sky-fans were then pulling for Latour, Pinot, Ellisonde, or qui donc, I'd be very interested to see how the Brit fan base then reacted (maybe the French bashing would die down) and how the French public reacted (no more disliking Sky, rather the reverse, with lots of overt amour).

RichN95.

knedlicky wrote:

According to Liberation (and new to me), before the 2011 Vuelta, Brailsford was thinking of shipping Froome out to Radioshack, while Froome, suspecting he was going to get the push, spoke with Bjarne Rijs about joining Saxo-Bank (what a combination that may have turned out).

Not quite. He was taking to Riis (and Astana and Garmin) after he had shown what he could do at the Vuelta

iainf72

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

According to Liberation (and new to me), before the 2011 Vuelta, Brailsford was thinking of shipping Froome out to Radioshack, while Froome, suspecting he was going to get the push, spoke with Bjarne Rijs about joining Saxo-Bank (what a combination that may have turned out).

Not quite. He was taking to Riis (and Astana and Garmin) after he had shown what he could do at the Vuelta

Also did Vaughters say he'd long been interested in Froome before the Vuelta performance?

DeVlaeminck

knedlicky wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

I wouldn't give up on Pinot as having the potential in a Sky-like set up.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Latour would be a descent bet.

I doubt Sky will ever take a Frenchman as team leader.*
I can imagine part of Brailsford's contract with Murdoch includes that the Tour leader has to be a rider who fits the anglophone world, so a Brit, Aussie, Canadian, etc, or at least someone with whom Brits can easily identify. Thus maybe, like a couple of other posters have suggested, it could be Rohan Dennis next.
Or a George Bennett anyone?

*
On the other hand, with Sky subscribers being virtually non-existent in France (55% of subscribers are Brits, the rest mostly Italians and Germans), maybe it is the way for Sky to go, to extend their market.

If it turned out Sky-fans were then pulling for Latour, Pinot, Ellisonde, or qui donc, I'd be very interested to see how the Brit fan base then reacted (maybe the French bashing would die down) and how the French public reacted (no more disliking Sky, rather the reverse, with lots of overt amour).

I think Brailsford would love an American star Tour winner, a clean Armstrong. The scope for him to present himself as some kind of management sports guru would be huge if he can break America.

DeadCalm

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

hypster wrote:

jwa581 wrote:

Easy - win the tour with a French rider, Brailsford to be French national hero!

Easy thing to say but that rider hasn't been born yet. By the time he comes along Brailsford will be long gone.

did anyone think froome was good enough when he was getting middle of nowhere placings years ago?

perhaps brailsfords methods could work on someone else?

Latour would be a descent bet. He could certainly stand to lose a couple of kilo.
He can climb, time trial and already has an ugly as sin style on the bike.

Turns out Sky's best bet of a French Tour winner is likely already at Sky.
Pavel Sivakov.
Of Russian stock, born in Italy but raised in France. Bags of talent and potential. Already at Sky (currently riding in support of Kwiatkowski at the Tour de Pologne) and soon to have a French passport.