Old ways better??

jerry3571

I get a bit bamboozled by the ways the present Teams race at the end of a flat stage. Watching the Tours many years ago it seemed the GC riders stuck together near the front and you'd be told to sling your hook if you were small fry and were found in their spot. The yellow jersey team would be on the front trying to persuade the Sprinters Teams to take up the responsibility. The Sprinter Teams would give more riders as the stage went on and you'd have a single arrowhead with the Yellow jersey Team and Sprinters Teams sharing the pace. It could be 3 or 4 Teams putting riders in the work on the front.
Nowadays you got the Teams spread all over the road and as about as aero as a brick and also no single rider at the front taking responsibility for picking out the hazzards so no one does, making it very dangerous. I understand the GC Teams wanting to protect their main rider but if a Team crashes they wipe out their No2 GC rider and the Team so one crash takes out multiple riders from the same Team, crippling the Team's strength.
I wish they would get back to older ways and think spreading all the way across the road, there is nowhere to go if the road narrows (new french road calmer idea) or there's obstacles. I find it all a bit bonkers! Any ideas on this?

ShutupJens

Actually I think it was notable that for all the road furniture today, there was loads of signalling and as a result the bunch got round in one piece.

HTC used to boss the front of the bunch on the run on flat stages iirc, since then has there been any genuinely dominant teams that can bring all their riders to the front and keep them there from more than 5km out, without damaging their sprinters chances? Quickstep used to try it but then just get swamped, even with Tony M and all the other units in their beef train

It seems like everyone wants to be in front without having to commit to taking control, since they'll just end up swamped

RichN95.

Things evolve over time. It used to be that HTC would dominate everything and because Cavendish won everything no-one else would be up there.
Then Cadel Evans went to BMC and they didn't really have much to support him in the mountains, but he was nervous on the flat stages, so the team would protect him en masse, where before GC riders might have one or two piloting them.
The Marcel Kittel came along with a limited team at Argos where they wouldn't be on the front, but would come charging through with three riders in the last kilometre or so.
Then they changed the time gap rules for flat stages so that larger gaps could happen on flat stages and the same time would be given.

So we end up with the current situation where GC teams drive it to the 3km point and then drop back.

Personally I think that GC teams should work as smaller units in the finale and be more agile. I also don't know what Sky are thinking having Froome on Thomas's wheel. One crash and both their cards fall.

jerry3571

Back in the pre Armstrong days, the pointy end was just that. Teams used to contribute one or two riders, other teams used to pitch in one or two riders and you could get 15 or so riders doing the work, with a few teams cooperating. Seems there's zero cooperation these days. Also the person on the front would be the one who takes responsibility for picking out hazards or bends etc. The pointy end would go much better round roundabouts and turns too rather than the blob of riders we get now.
I think Thomas got took out of the Giro where his team mate screwed up and they all ploughed in to him. Most of the team was on the deck.
This is the crash. All individual Teams only looking at their own and not signalling the dangers on the road. If it was old style then the one who was pulling could signal. Modern times ey!
https://youtu.be/_9LYtmhOEEU

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

I think Thomas got took out of the Giro where his team mate screwed up and they all ploughed in to him. Most of the team was on the deck.

It wasn't anything to do with his team - it was a stupidly parked motorbike. Sunweb were on the outside of Sky and some managed to squeeze past it before Keldermann couldn't avoid it, taking out Sky - not his fault. The person in front of Keldermann, who just about avoided it, was Dumoulin, who went on to win. Narrow margins and dumb luck.

jerry3571

My point is no one person is taking the responsibility at the front so no one does. In the clip they're so busy trying to out drag one another they mess up on the simple things like avoiding motorbikes and road furniture. It's plain daft.
I know in that clip, one team goes across the front and squeezes Sky and Sun Web to the gutter. Crazy riding by all :roll:

Vino'sGhost

Things go round in circles there’s not a lot different over the last 20 years there are often sprinters teams, Htc seem like very recent history, before that cipollini had his team monstering it. And they really were epic.

Lanterne_Rogue

Anyone else feeling slightly discombobulated by HTC being described as "in the old days"?

I want to scream that I'm still in my thirties for ****s sake!

cougie

In the old days there was less road furniture.

I don't think much else has changed really. Looked perfectly safe to me from the coverage today.

dolan_driver

underlayunderlay wrote:

Anyone else feeling slightly discombobulated by HTC being described as "in the old days"?

I want to scream that I'm still in my thirties for ****s sake!

The first "train" I can remember is the Superconfex team from the late-eighties with the brilliantly-named Jean-Paul Van Poppel. Mario Cippollini's Saeco team took things to another level and have basically set the template for the sprint train as we know it today. Recalling all these teams does make a body feel old!.

DD.

jerry3571

This is definitely pre HTC. Youtube clip is below- This shows what I mean. The front end of the chase is a single line out and gradually fattens out, where the GC riders are (no Nanny's or Wet Nurses) and then the rest are behind and the strugglers are at the narrow bit at the rear. In the clip, the front of the Peloton include Banesto and ONCE sharing the pace. This pace sharing was very common then but hardly seen now. But as said, the front of the Peloton was an arrowhead shape with the single line of workers on the front and often a mix of teams all working as one unit. I find the new ways very odd. Someone said BMC might have been the start of this where Cadel Evans was Mr Neurotic and wanted to feel protected with the whole Team around him. Others copied this and now the front is just gutter to gutter of Teams drag racing one another. If you get an island or something in the road then there's no room at the front to get around it and no one on the front giving the shout and signal. Hmmm...:/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-x4H3p54pU

As for feeling old, my Customer today was saying he's always watched Cycling and remembers the half an hour on the World of Sport on ITV. I said he's done me as I started with Roche on Channel 4. He's early 1980s and I'm an 87 starter. :shock:

RichN95.

jerry3571 wrote:

This is definitely pre HTC. Youtube clip is below- This shows what I mean. The front end of the chase is a single line out and gradually fattens out, where the GC riders are (no Nanny's or Wet Nurses) and then the rest are behind and the strugglers are at the narrow bit at the rear. In the clip, the front of the Peloton include Banesto and ONCE sharing the pace. This pace sharing was very common then but hardly seen now. But as said, the front of the Peloton was an arrowhead shape with the single line of workers on the front and often a mix of teams all working as one unit. I find the new ways very odd. Someone said BMC might have been the start of this where Cadel Evans was Mr Neurotic and wanted to feel protected with the whole Team around him. Others copied this and now the front is just gutter to gutter of Teams drag racing one another. If you get an island or something in the road then there's no room at the front to get around it and no one on the front giving the shout and signal. Hmmm...:/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-x4H3p54pU

As for feeling old, my Customer today was saying he's always watched Cycling and remembers the half an hour on the World of Sport on ITV. I said he's done me as I started with Roche on Channel 4. He's early 1980s and I'm an 87 starter. :shock:

Yeah, but you've picked a clip where the break is nearly five minutes ahead of the peloton. Of course there's going to be limited involvement.

Vino'sGhost

Tactics change but this saeco trains were made up of big units I’m not sure that quite as many people in the peloton could ride at the speed back then.

It was awesome to watch a 200yard long snake winding through an old town at 40plus mph.

Perhaps there are just less horse roids than there were (or perhaps they’re more widely available now)

Perhaps it’s just that everyone has access to better training than they used to. Or it might reflect the peculiar strengths of your star sprinter. Cippolini was best launching himself off the front Of a train which had sustained speed.

I suspect organisers would put stages in that suited the tactics of the local superstar then as now.

phreak

A new study (http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.jweia.2018.06.011) found the most efficient place in the peleton from an aero perspective.

ddraver

In the words of Mr Cavendish, If the GC riders 'all f88ked off put the back' for the last few kms it would be much easier.

It makes sense to me. The trouble is how can we encourage GC riders to all stick in a group together on the same time without one sneakily gaining time by hiding in the sprint pack

above_the_cows

underlayunderlay wrote:

Anyone else feeling slightly discombobulated by HTC being described as "in the old days"?

I want to scream that I'm still in my thirties for ****s sake!

Same, it only seems like a few years ago and it was glorious! That train was a sight to behold.

davidof

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-x4H3p54pU

As for feeling old, my Customer today was saying he's always watched Cycling and remembers the half an hour on the World of Sport on ITV. I said he's done me as I started with Roche on Channel 4. He's early 1980s and I'm an 87 starter. :shock:[/quote]

You were lucky to get 15 minutes in the 1970s

takethehighroad

davidof wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-x4H3p54pU

As for feeling old, my Customer today was saying he's always watched Cycling and remembers the half an hour on the World of Sport on ITV. I said he's done me as I started with Roche on Channel 4. He's early 1980s and I'm an 87 starter. :shock:

You were lucky to get 15 minutes in the 1970s[/quote]

That's all a little Four Yorkshiremen isn't it?