Titanium bike debate
kimchiwitrice
Posts: 32
Anyone have experience with buying a Titanium bike in the UK?
Currently eyeing up an Enigma but would like to hear thoughts, since prices can vary so much, without really knowing why that's the case!
Currently eyeing up an Enigma but would like to hear thoughts, since prices can vary so much, without really knowing why that's the case!
0
Comments
-
kimchiwitrice wrote:Anyone have experience with buying a Titanium bike in the UK?
Currently eyeing up an Enigma but would like to hear thoughts, since prices can vary so much, without really knowing why that's the case!
Yes. I bought an Evade in 2016 from Westbrook Cycles. Process was very smooth actually and I got a great deal on a frameset and groupset + finishing kit. So, a full bike really minus the wheels. I got it for less than Enigma were selling for directly which is maybe why they are no longer Enigma dealers! There is a dealer network throughout the UK so you would be best to go to a dealer and speak to them or visit Enigma directly in Eastbourne. Prices have gone up considerably in the last two years. My 105 version is now over 3k. I think prices are pretty consistent for Enigmas right now, where are you seeing different prices?0 -
It's not so much a variation in price between Enigma models – I meant more in terms of what titanium bike pricing, and why certain retailers/builders charge way more for (what seems to be) similar grades of titanium?0
-
kimchiwitrice wrote:It's not so much a variation in price between Enigma models – I meant more in terms of what titanium bike pricing, and why certain retailers/builders charge way more for (what seems to be) similar grades of titanium?
Which are you comparing?0 -
If you build a Ti frame out of 7 lengths of identical tubing, it will not ride the same as one made from tubing individually selected for tubing thickness and diameter. Then there's aesthetics. Does your Ti frame have welds that look like the ones on a Boris bike? Or a stack of coins? Allegedly there's a correlation between how nice the welds look and how good they are underneath, and so how likely they are to crack. There's also the normal stuff that distinguishes between frames, such as how good the alignment is, how well the bb is faced and general finish.
Don't get a Ti frame for outright performance. There are indeed high performance Ti frames, but you pay more than for an equivalent carbon frame and they seem to me to need to move away from they very reasons you go for Ti in the first place in order to do what carbon frames do, only slightly less well.0 -
kimchiwitrice wrote:It's not so much a variation in price between Enigma models – I meant more in terms of what titanium bike pricing, and why certain retailers/builders charge way more for (what seems to be) similar grades of titanium?
Build quality. Enigma make top quality bikes. Ti is a difficult material to work with and has to be welded by a specialist. Only certain people have the expertise to do it properly. You can go off the shelf or custom at Enigma. Sure, it might cost more than a Ti frame from Planet X but I for one would rather have the confidence that I am buying a quality product that will last a lifetime, unlike a lot of cheaper Ti frames or all carbon frames for that matter. When components are worn I can get the frame stripped down, polished up and new component fitted and I basically have a new bike. Personal choice but you won't be disappointed with an Enigma #bikeforlife. Oh, they also command good resale value if you decide to sell which is not so true of other cheaper Ti bikes.0 -
First Aspect wrote:If you build a Ti frame out of 7 lengths of identical tubing, it will not ride the same as one made from tubing individually selected for tubing thickness and diameter. Then there's aesthetics. Does your Ti frame have welds that look like the ones on a Boris bike? Or a stack of coins? Allegedly there's a correlation between how nice the welds look and how good they are underneath, and so how likely they are to crack. There's also the normal stuff that distinguishes between frames, such as how good the alignment is, how well the bb is faced and general finish.
Don't get a Ti frame for outright performance. There are indeed high performance Ti frames, but you pay more than for an equivalent carbon frame and they seem to me to need to move away from they very reasons you go for Ti in the first place in order to do what carbon frames do, only slightly less well.
I agree completely with the first paragraph which is what I was saying. Build quality is all important and certainly varies within Ti manufacture. I think Enigma get the balance right between performance and comfort/ride quality (which is what a lot of people buy Ti for in the first place) They are light and stiff and the top end bike they do is a true performance bike for 7k which is similar to a top level carbon bike. Weight about 7kg so also comparable.0 -
Camcycle1974 wrote:First Aspect wrote:If you build a Ti frame out of 7 lengths of identical tubing, it will not ride the same as one made from tubing individually selected for tubing thickness and diameter. Then there's aesthetics. Does your Ti frame have welds that look like the ones on a Boris bike? Or a stack of coins? Allegedly there's a correlation between how nice the welds look and how good they are underneath, and so how likely they are to crack. There's also the normal stuff that distinguishes between frames, such as how good the alignment is, how well the bb is faced and general finish.
Don't get a Ti frame for outright performance. There are indeed high performance Ti frames, but you pay more than for an equivalent carbon frame and they seem to me to need to move away from they very reasons you go for Ti in the first place in order to do what carbon frames do, only slightly less well.
I agree completely with the first paragraph which is what I was saying. Build quality is all important and certainly varies within Ti manufacture. I think Enigma get the balance right between performance and comfort/ride quality (which is what a lot of people buy Ti for in the first place) They are light and stiff and the top end bike they do is a true performance bike for 7k which is similar to a top level carbon bike. Weight about 7kg so also comparable.
You can certainly build a light enough Ti bike, however there are a lot of carbon frames which will have a 500g head start on you, or will use 500g of material to make the world's largest bb, or most aero tubing.
You just aren't able to get the same combination of weight/stiffness/comfort/aero from Ti tubing. But would you want that? No, get a Ti bike because it feels like people always tell you that steel should feel, will look great and perform close enough to a fugly carbon megabike that you won't notice the difference. It will never go out of fashion. I also like that the chaps on megaplastic aerobikes that are supposedly compliant and comfortable but just aren't, all seem to rather want to own mine.0 -
Whilst my carbon Cervelo was in for a repair at my lbs they offered to lend me a Ti Enigma, unfortunately I didn't take note of which model, it was amazing, it felt just as stiff and just as responsive as my Cervelo, weight wise there was barely anything in it, it got more comments than my bike ever does and you've got the confidence that unlike carbon it's extremely unlikely to snap underneath you.
Also to add, the same shop lent me a steel enigma too, although slightly heavier, it felt even better than the Ti bike, better handling, confidence inspiring, more responsive and probably quite a bit cheaper.
They really are great bikes, to the point it was a bit of an anti climax when I got my bike back. I wanted to keep the steel enigma.0 -
JakeJ wrote:Whilst my carbon Cervelo was in for a repair at my lbs they offered to lend me a Ti Enigma, unfortunately I didn't take note of which model, it was amazing, it felt just as stiff and just as responsive as my Cervelo, weight wise there was barely anything in it, it got more comments than my bike ever does and you've got the confidence that unlike carbon it's extremely unlikely to snap underneath you.
Also to add, the same shop lent me a steel enigma too, although slightly heavier, it felt even better than the Ti bike, better handling, confidence inspiring, more responsive and probably quite a bit cheaper.
They really are great bikes, to the point it was a bit of an anti climax when I got my bike back. I wanted to keep the steel enigma.
Great story Jake. I did a similar thing with my LBS recently. I demoed the new Tarmac disc and a Madone 9 and both of them felt inferior to my Evade, despite being 4 grand bikes. The steel is something I want to try too at some point. I have an old steel race bike which is lovely to ride but the geometry doesn't really suit me. A modern steel bike would be a joy to ride. People get too caught up in carbon being the be all and end all but unless you spend serious money they are invariably not as good as a good Ti, steel or even alu bike. I had carbon for a while but sold it to get the Enigma and have never once regretted doing so. With 25mm tubeless tyres on wide rims its a very comfortable, performance orientated bike.0 -
First Aspect wrote:Camcycle1974 wrote:First Aspect wrote:If you build a Ti frame out of 7 lengths of identical tubing, it will not ride the same as one made from tubing individually selected for tubing thickness and diameter. Then there's aesthetics. Does your Ti frame have welds that look like the ones on a Boris bike? Or a stack of coins? Allegedly there's a correlation between how nice the welds look and how good they are underneath, and so how likely they are to crack. There's also the normal stuff that distinguishes between frames, such as how good the alignment is, how well the bb is faced and general finish.
Don't get a Ti frame for outright performance. There are indeed high performance Ti frames, but you pay more than for an equivalent carbon frame and they seem to me to need to move away from they very reasons you go for Ti in the first place in order to do what carbon frames do, only slightly less well.
I agree completely with the first paragraph which is what I was saying. Build quality is all important and certainly varies within Ti manufacture. I think Enigma get the balance right between performance and comfort/ride quality (which is what a lot of people buy Ti for in the first place) They are light and stiff and the top end bike they do is a true performance bike for 7k which is similar to a top level carbon bike. Weight about 7kg so also comparable.
You can certainly build a light enough Ti bike, however there are a lot of carbon frames which will have a 500g head start on you, or will use 500g of material to make the world's largest bb, or most aero tubing.
You just aren't able to get the same combination of weight/stiffness/comfort/aero from Ti tubing. But would you want that? No, get a Ti bike because it feels like people always tell you that steel should feel, will look great and perform close enough to a fugly carbon megabike that you won't notice the difference. It will never go out of fashion. I also like that the chaps on megaplastic aerobikes that are supposedly compliant and comfortable but just aren't, all seem to rather want to own mine.
Absolutely. A Ti purchase is more about the whole experience than out and out performance. For the majority who aren't racing a Ti bike would be an eminently sensible but people are seduced by the marketing hype surrounding carbon. Pleased to say that i swim against the tide and don't own a carbon bike.0 -
As has been said ti is hard to work with. I know of a few pals who had theirs crack but they weren't enigma.
If you want a long term bike then go for one.
I've never had a cf frame fail on me and I'll probably be changing every so often so CF is a good choice for me.0 -
I bought a Indy Fab Ti Deluxe which was made to measure and designed to compliment the type of mtb'ing which is where tube thickness comes into play.
There's certainly a strong emotional connection to your bike that a generic frame doesn't get light years close to which offsets some of the more real life issues.
Life time warranty on defects...mmmmm read the small print as its usually five years. My frame cracked on the rear stay after 5 years but took 4 months plus to be replaced which is a downside from a made to measure frame from the USA.
If we could measure value in terms of smiles per mile then a made to measure frame is a great investment.
Which is what I said to my wife“Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”
Desmond Tutu0 -
cougie wrote:As has been said ti is hard to work with. I know of a few pals who had theirs crack but they weren't enigma.
If you want a long term bike then go for one.
I've never had a cf frame fail on me and I'll probably be changing every so often so CF is a good choice for me.
That's the only downside. I told my wife that my Evade was a bike for life to justify the outlay and she replied by saying that in that case I'll never need to buy another bike! Game, set and match.
0 -
I've ridden Ti bikes that have been dull and lifeless, comfy mile munchers but really uninspiring rides. May as well buy cheap alu.
Some lighter hydroformed tubed bikes perform much better.I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
I've got an original Scott Foil and an older PX Ti road bike (made by lynskey).
Both great bikes but for performance, the Foil has it, considerably. I am also the only person I know of riding a Ti bike that hasn't had an issue. My Dad bought the same PX frame about a year before me and recently had to return it as it cracked the rear mech joint. I have heard countless other people having Ti frames crack. It's not surprising, it's an incredibly hard material to work with. In contrast to the post above, I would say Ti is more likely "snap underneath you", though in practice with both bikes it's incredibly unlikely. Saying that, I love my Ti bike and it is probably the last one I would sell, not sure why, the Foil is faster, stiffer, lighter, etc...
So my points/tips for buying a new bike:
- buy whichever grabs you, in 5 years time which one will you be able to look at and think "Nope, I don't want a new bike"
- Don't look at the material, look at the bike. The engineering and manufacturing have a lot more to say about how a bike handles, stiffness etc... that purely what it is made of.
- IF buying titanium, check how long the warranty (10 years, lifetime of the frame, etc...). It won't rust and can be polished to look like new for life, sure, but that's not good if the frame is in two pieces.0 -
Really good feedback! Cheers guys - at the moment I'm setting on an Evoke but would like to try the Elite too. Had a steel bike before so I know what they're like. From my one ride on an Evade I was super impressed but it's tricky for me to tell a tangible difference between a Ti frame and a well-engineered steel frame. Not to mention I have ever so slight concerns about a crack but given the welds on the Evade that I saw the other day, I doubt that would happen!
A part of me has a soft spot for bikes made from start to finish in the UK - getting something like the Echelon with disc brakes would be ideal but a bit steep in terms of budget. Currently debating on the Elite disc too as a #BikeForLife option!0 -
joey54321 wrote:I have heard countless other people having Ti frames crack. It's not surprising, it's an incredibly hard material.
Countless? Titanium bikes are relatively uncommon and yet you've heard of countless frames cracking? Do you know these people or is something you've read on the internet? I'd be wary of believing unsubstantiated and unquantifiable scare stories on the web. Anyone considering shelling out large amounts of money on ANY frame would do well to do some research and buy from a reputable company with a good guarantee.
I own a titanium bike and I think it's wonderful. I'm 6'5" and weigh around 17 stone and if anyone's going to give a frame a hard time it's me, but the complete bike with pedals and alloy wheels is a smidge over 8kg. With different finishing kit and wheels I could probably shave off at least 500 grammes but it doesn't interest me to do that. Obviously this is a sample of one. YMMV.0 -
There's a lot of confirmation bias going on of course. A lot of Ti frames don't crack. Some do. Some Alu frames crack. Some steel frames crack. Lots of CF frames crack. If you look hard enough you will find lots of examples. Similarly, you can find lots of examples of people being struck by lightening or attacked by sharks. Doesn't mean its common. The question is, is YOUR frame, of whatever material, likely to crack? No.
The most dull and lifeless frames I've ever ridden have been carbon fibre ones I've hired on holiday. Perfectly good bikes - a Supersix and an Elmonda - but utterly characterless (particularly the Trek).
One of the reasons good steel and Ti frames can be so confidence inspiring is that you can feel what is going on underneath you, but they aren't too stiff. Kind of the same thing as with skis and, if there are any rowers out there, racing shells. A bit of elasticity and compliance does actually help and what's good on paper doesn't necessarily translate to what's best in practice.0 -
Shortfall wrote:joey54321 wrote:I have heard countless other people having Ti frames crack. It's not surprising, it's an incredibly hard material.
Countless? Titanium bikes are relatively uncommon and yet you've heard of countless frames cracking? Do you know these people or is something you've read on the internet? I'd be wary of believing unsubstantiated and unquantifiable scare stories on the web. Anyone considering shelling out large amounts of money on ANY frame would do well to do some research and buy from a reputable company with a good guarantee.
I own a titanium bike and I think it's wonderful. I'm 6'5" and weigh around 17 stone and if anyone's going to give a frame a hard time it's me, but the complete bike with pedals and alloy wheels is a smidge over 8kg. With different finishing kit and wheels I could probably shave off at least 500 grammes but it doesn't interest me to do that. Obviously this is a sample of one. YMMV.
Ok, countless was a bit of an overstep, I think it's 5 local guys of the top of my head. A variety of brands, some well known.
In contrast, I have seen one carbon bike fail (though it was actually that alloy part the fatigued and snapped).0 -
I don't want to ridicule anyone (today), but here's evidence of why you should only ever rent a bike. They are just made of cheese. Looking at these pictures I can scarcely believe anyone dares to cycle.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1 ... krkv-djk58
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=carbo ... 6&dpr=1.13
https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1 ... zbr4YCBHgU
https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1 ... nJRNz7eyWs0 -
joey54321 wrote:Shortfall wrote:joey54321 wrote:I have heard countless other people having Ti frames crack. It's not surprising, it's an incredibly hard material.
Countless? Titanium bikes are relatively uncommon and yet you've heard of countless frames cracking? Do you know these people or is something you've read on the internet? I'd be wary of believing unsubstantiated and unquantifiable scare stories on the web. Anyone considering shelling out large amounts of money on ANY frame would do well to do some research and buy from a reputable company with a good guarantee.
I own a titanium bike and I think it's wonderful. I'm 6'5" and weigh around 17 stone and if anyone's going to give a frame a hard time it's me, but the complete bike with pedals and alloy wheels is a smidge over 8kg. With different finishing kit and wheels I could probably shave off at least 500 grammes but it doesn't interest me to do that. Obviously this is a sample of one. YMMV.
Ok, countless was a bit of an overstep, I think it's 5 local guys of the top of my head. A variety of brands, some well known.
In contrast, I have seen one carbon bike fail (though it was actually that alloy part the fatigued and snapped).
Weird, Iv'e never seen a bike "fail" like that. Enigma offer a lifetime guarantee on the frame so I'm not too concerned.0 -
Camcycle1974 wrote:joey54321 wrote:Shortfall wrote:joey54321 wrote:I have heard countless other people having Ti frames crack. It's not surprising, it's an incredibly hard material.
Countless? Titanium bikes are relatively uncommon and yet you've heard of countless frames cracking? Do you know these people or is something you've read on the internet? I'd be wary of believing unsubstantiated and unquantifiable scare stories on the web. Anyone considering shelling out large amounts of money on ANY frame would do well to do some research and buy from a reputable company with a good guarantee.
I own a titanium bike and I think it's wonderful. I'm 6'5" and weigh around 17 stone and if anyone's going to give a frame a hard time it's me, but the complete bike with pedals and alloy wheels is a smidge over 8kg. With different finishing kit and wheels I could probably shave off at least 500 grammes but it doesn't interest me to do that. Obviously this is a sample of one. YMMV.
Ok, countless was a bit of an overstep, I think it's 5 local guys of the top of my head. A variety of brands, some well known.
In contrast, I have seen one carbon bike fail (though it was actually that alloy part the fatigued and snapped).
Weird, Iv'e never seen a bike "fail" like that. Enigma offer a lifetime guarantee on the frame so I'm not too concerned.
Yup, my post was really just to highlight how important a guarantee is!0 -
Camcycle1974 wrote:
Weird, Iv'e never seen a bike "fail" like that. Enigma offer a lifetime guarantee on the frame so I'm not too concerned.
Enigma are sensible and have external cable routing, taking out completely unnecessary points of failure on a ti frame.0 -
Titanium bikes, like any others, will tend to fail at points of stress. This means welds, seams, around drop outs, where the seatposts provides leverage etc. I have never heard of any frame of any material failing at an internal cable routing point. More nonsense I'm afraid.londoncommuter wrote:Camcycle1974 wrote:
Weird, Iv'e never seen a bike "fail" like that. Enigma offer a lifetime guarantee on the frame so I'm not too concerned.
Enigma are sensible and have external cable routing, taking out completely unnecessary points of failure on a ti frame.0 -
ppp0
-
I've got a Lynskey. Love it except it's getting a bit dull riding a bike which is one shade of gray. Is it sacrilegious to spray a Ti frame?0
-
Have a look at planet X they have some bargains on there at the moment, one with Sram Force 22 for £1299. My favourite is the Pickenflick, Fantastic do it all bike.0
-
yeah going to need a bit more info. Did your cables run near welds? Some builders are self taught engineers. Or muppets. Were they effectively just drilled? Or through a reinforcing plate? Did it fail because of the internal routing port or merely in that region. Do ypu really know? I'm genuinely interested.londoncommuter wrote:First Aspect wrote:I have never heard of any frame of any material failing at an internal cable routing point. More nonsense I'm afraid.
Mine did.0 -
I have Lynskey R240 with Ultegra. I had it built to my spec by South West Bike Builders. Ian is brilliant, very helpful and knowledgeable. I did visit Fatbirds in Norfolk and they were also very helpful, lots of choice and plenty to test ride.
I am based in Kent but if you really want something you will travel for it.
I really like Ti, I also have an aluminium Bianchi and carbon Cervelo. All are great bikes, just different. I cycled to Amsterdam a couple of years ago on the Lynskey and it was very comfy. Got London to Paris next Saturday and again I am taking the Lynskey. That’s not to say the Cervelo is uncomfortable because it’s not. Done many century’s on it.
Hope you get want you what.
D0
