I keep getting dropped on 53/39 steel frame

bice

I am getting dropped on club rides riding an Italian steel frame with Campagnolo Record 53/39 chainring on a ten-speed set-up with Centaur Ergopower shiters.

So, this isn’t a retro arrangement.

At first, I thought it was weight: me or the bike, but I am 11.5 stone (73 kilos) and lighter than some who are dumping me.

The steel bike weighs 10.35 kilos and is very light Nivachrome made in 1996. (Add water, bag, pump, me).

The others are all on carbon frames and, I think more important, riding compacts of (guessing) 50/34. Some are quite fancy with carbon wheels and a Canyon with electric shifts (not in itself relevant).

There is maybe three kilos in it, on the bike weights. Perhaps four, for the fancier ones.

But I think it is my high gearing that is wearing me down.

Every time we hit a significant hill, I fall away. (I can get up them, by the way, and did 111 miles in the Peak District on this bike three weeks back. To mitigate the 39T crank, I run a 30T on the rear.)

Another possibility is that I am just having to work harder and in the hot weather lose salts to a greater degree.

I don’t think there is a solution to changing the cranks to compact for Campagnolo on a square tapered BB. Easy enough, as always, with Shimano.

A further, less important, irritation is that the cranks are 172.5, and I am 5.8ft: I don’t really know what effect this has on my peddling, to be frank, but it means I take care banking around corners.

I am thinking about giving up on this bike except as a retro / Eroica ride, opting for down tube shifters and an 8-speed rear hub.

It would look the business and be very pretty, but I doubt I would use it much. An alternative is to sell it.

It is very comfortable, is very springy and looks lovely, but maybe it’s time to upgrade.

(Just to say, when doing 100 miles, as we did last week, I came in ahead - but it was slightly slower paced.)

imposter2.0

You are getting dropped because your sustainable power and w/kg are not as good as those you ride with. Nothing to do with the bike. That's not to say that more appropriate gearing wouldn't be helpful, but changing that will not be the answer in itself...

slowbike

It's those with 500mm deep rims and electronic shifting - that makes climbing so much easier...

or not ...

as Imposter says - it's w/kg and your freshness vs theirs at the time of the ride.

I felt fine at the beginning of the club ride yesterday - quite happy up the hills - but 2 hours in I'd had enough climbing - a mix of the heat, a bottle of squash and nothing to eat (deliberate) - but I still managed a second best time on a frequently ridden flat segment once I peeled off to head home.

darkhairedlord

while your on here moaning, they're out training.

kingrollo

What kind of 'ride' are doing with the club ?

is it a training run ?or a more social club run ? - the groups that I ride with usually wait at the top of climbs anyway - some of the faster groups don't - would it be possible to find another group within the club while you build your fitness ?

That said it new lighter compact carbon bike would help - but don't expect a total transformation.

pblakeney

I'd check out the engine before the bodywork.

milemuncher1

Standard cranksets aren’t ideal, if you’ve got a lot of climbs on a route. But if you increase your power to weight enough, it becomes less of a chore. I’ve got a mixture of ally and Carbon frames, and a mixture of cranksets. I’m okay with hills on my Carbon 10 speed, with the standard rings (53-39) and an 11-28 cassette, but I’d rather be using the semi chainset ( 52-36 ) to be fair. Unless the weights are many Kgs apart, the effect of the different weights of bike / wheels, isn’t as big a deal as you may think, purely in the climbs.The differences are more marked if you have to throw the bike around twisty bits however. I’ve also changed to 170mm cranks on my bikes, from 172.5, as I prefer the smaller pedalling circle. The Simple answer is to improve your Power to weight, and endurance / fitness, and / or get a more suitable set up bike for hilly routes.

akh

If you'd like to spin faster but can't because you're in your lowest gear, then lower gearing may help. You're not equally efficient at all cadences, so you can't just drop rpm and increase power to compensate forever. Can't you just pick up a compact chainset for cheap and try it out?

If your not grinding up a steep hill and still getting dropped, it's not the gearing, it's fitness. A couple of kg off the bike isn't going to make much difference. Good luck either way.

aberdeen_lune

I think you will notice the extra 3 kg on the bike, assuming your club mates are riding 7kg Carbon bikes.

I was struggling on group rides a month ago getting dropped on climbs. First thought was am I just getting less powerful due to age. I then bought a set of kitchen scales and found out I was 70.5kg, my racing weight used to be 65kg. Anyway I cut out snacks and am now back down to 65kg and I’m first up the hills again. So even a small weight saving of 3-5kg can make a difference.

The choice is yours lose a few kg in body weight or spend 4K on a new bike or better still do both and practice a smug grin to use while your waiting at the top for your mates to arrive.

keef66

Aberdeen_lune wrote:

....I then bought a set of kitchen scales and found out I was 70.5kg.....

If you're using scales that weigh up to 70kg in the kitchen I'm not surprised you're overweight

N0bodyOfTheGoat

I'd want a 34T biggest sprocket, which not many road groupsets do, to go with a large small 39T chainring for hill climbs.

Won't always use it, but nice to have as an option.

cougie

Is this a new occurrence or are you always getting dropped ?

bice

Well, I appreciate the unvarnished truths.

I could, and should, get down to 70kgs (not that all the others are exactly whippets).

Another consideration is that I think they have all got better in summer and fall off a bit in winter, while I am more consistent throughout the year. And I ride an alloy compact in the winter.

On the chainrings, 39T is actually pleasant and usable, in many circumstances. But 53T is over the top, in my view. So, yes, I get dropped in summer and not in winter.

I do have a Campag triple (and correct BB length), so I could try that, although it will put my bike weight up a bit: the rear mech would cope as it is long enough, but not sure about the shifters. I will give it a shot.

Time for some Michael Mosley-style fasting, I guess.

shirley_basso

FYI: A 50x11 is a bigger gear than 53x12. It's not the gearing, it's the fitness. Your weight seems ok, maybe a little high for your height.

I think you need to work on your hills, or equivalent length intervals. When on these types of hard training rides rides, it's not about getting around in the shortest time so much, like a time trial, it's about not missing the splits or letting a gap go. Then you're stuffed.

Thae above said, I certainly find my carbon deep wheel race bike easier than my winter trainer when on chaingangs.

w00dster

I have a climb I used to do reasonably regularly. Its a decent climb, about 27 mins of climbing, average gradient is 4% with some short sections over 20%, my fastest time up there is on my heaviest bike (9kgs) but one with compact gearing and a 32 cassette. The Strava section is 4.8 miles with 1100 feet of climbing, starts of nice and easy and gets steep for close to 2 miles.
My race bike I'd previously done it on was light (sub 7kgs) with light deep section carbon wheels, race tyres but with 53/39 and 11-28. So I would say its fitness, you not being able to push that gear as effectively as people who have more appropriate gearing (more appropriate to their fitness level). So as you struggle with that gearing I'd say you would be better with a compact.
I think most people here can ride heavier bikes and keep up with decent paced club rides, that's a combination of fitness, appropriate gearing and knowing when to do your turn on the front. I now only have the one road bike, this is just over 9.5kgs, most of my team mates are on very light, very expensive bikes, I can keep up. If I did too long a pull on the front or tried to increase the pace or even go too early on a hill, then I'd struggle to keep up - but sensible riding and gearing helps.

w00dster

Shirley - isn't the issue the 39-30? If he's going uphill in a 53/12 I can see what the problem is......Ow, my knee's hurt just typing that.
For nice flat rides 53-39 is awesome. But for hills, not for me.

keef66

I did a 60 mile charity ride yesterday and kept getting dropped by my son who at 29 is 31 years my junior. Annoying, but there was bugger all I could do about it. Doubly annoying that he never used his inner chainring, despite me pointing out the racket his cross-chaining was making. I was using all three of mine. Quietly mind.

It's self evidently not about weight; he is a good 2 stone heavier than me, but his power to weight ratio is clearly a lot more than mine. He has been putting in a lot of riding recently, much of it with pals faster than him, and is completely obsessed with Strava. I think it's paying off...

So if your gearing allows you to pedal at a cadence you find comfortable, but you're still dropping behind, you need to work on increasing your power.

(I tried a standard 53/39 double for a while thinking I'd get used to it as I got stronger, but in practice I used the 53 so rarely it was pointless, and I seem to be getting gradually slower now...)

If you do have some excess weight you could do with losing, then I've found 5:2 to be the only thing that ever worked for me, so give it a go.

shirley_basso

w00dster wrote:

Shirley - isn't the issue the 39-30? If he's going uphill in a 53/12 I can see what the problem is......Ow, my knee's hurt just typing that.
For nice flat rides 53-39 is awesome. But for hills, not for me.

Yes - but he says he's fine with the 39 but that the 53 is OTT. Doesn't make sense.

cookeeemonster

Be interesting to know if those saying 3 or 4kg extra bike weight doesn't matter are actually riding bikes 3 or 4kg heavier than their peers and putting no extra effort up the hills?

Yeah training and fitness comes first - of course...but all things being equal a significantly heavier bike is gonna make a real difference on hilly or fast rides no?

shirley_basso

Hilly yes, fast not necessarily.

It does make a difference when sprinting to get back on the wheel when coming through/off and the frame either pushes on forward or just bends. Yes if you have the legs to compensate, it's fine, but it definitely does make a difference if you're not keeping up as easily.

rolf_f

CookeeeMonster wrote:

Be interesting to know if those saying 3 or 4kg extra bike weight doesn't matter are actually riding bikes 3 or 4kg heavier than their peers and putting no extra effort up the hills?

Yeah training and fitness comes first - of course...but all things being equal a significantly heavier bike is gonna make a real difference on hilly or fast rides no?

In Yorkshire I ride carbon bikes with compacts. In Sussex a 12 speed 1980 Raleigh Record Ace with 39 tooth smaller ring. It'll be a little bit heavier than the OPs bike I assume. Sussex isn't like Yorkshire - the hills are smaller but they are more frequent. I find the Raleigh hard work and notably slower than the carbon bikes. Terrain wise I'm not comparing like with like but I'd say that a change of bike will certainly make a difference; I know it isn't fashionable to say so though!

bice

Shirley Basso wrote:

w00dster wrote:

Shirley - isn't the issue the 39-30? If he's going uphill in a 53/12 I can see what the problem is......Ow, my knee's hurt just typing that.
For nice flat rides 53-39 is awesome. But for hills, not for me.

Yes - but he says he's fine with the 39 but that the 53 is OTT. Doesn't make sense.

I guess what I am saying is that find 39T a useful and comfortable range at all points, whereas the 53T is excessive and I am never powering along to capacity at 53/12, say.

That said, I am struggling on the hills, so 39T is too big: probably great as a middle ring of a triple.

Leaving aside whether I am a fatso and a slacker, I would say 50/34 would be a better combo.

Matthewfalle

Just get your legs sorted and all will be well.

Vino'sGhost

get some POWA

join training peaks and buy a power building course and follow it. Expect brutal low cadence high power intervals of an hour and 8 12 and twenty minute higher power higher cadence sessions, expect under overs that make you want to cry, expect total exhaustion and early nights.

Expect to drop everyone or gradually drift the speed up on long climbs and watch them crack.

ilovegrace

I have a planet x london road and a look 566.
Get dropped on climbs on the px . We are evenly matched if not better than the other chaps when on the look.
Same climbs same lads i ride with , it most certainly is the bike in my case.
Regards
ILG

keef66

bice wrote:

That said, I am struggling on the hills, so 39T is too big: probably great as a middle ring of a triple.

That's what I found, so I went back to my triple. 50 is as big as I'll ever need, 39 is perfect for the flat or gently undulating, and 30 is a great bail-out gear for hills and when I'm knackered at the end of a long ride.

On the winter bike I have a CX 46/36 chainset

sloppyschleckonds

Vino'sGhost wrote:

get some POWA

join training peaks and buy a power building course and follow it. Expect brutal low cadence high power intervals of an hour and 8 12 and twenty minute higher power higher cadence sessions, expect under overs that make you want to cry, expect total exhaustion and early nights.

I sometimes wonder why people make their hobbies so competitive

ben@31

Vino'sGhost wrote:

get some POWA

join training peaks and buy a power building course and follow it. Expect brutal low cadence high power intervals of an hour and 8 12 and twenty minute higher power higher cadence sessions, expect under overs that make you want to cry, expect total exhaustion and early nights.

Expect to drop everyone or gradually drift the speed up on long climbs and watch them crack.

Do you get a sales commission ?

davep1

My previous bike (3 years ago) had a Campag 53-39 and a 12-25 cassette. I could keep up with my mates until we got to longer steeper hills, and then without exception they would all sit and spin away from me on their compact cranksets. I would be out of the saddle, grinding away at a low cadence, and they would be pootling away as the gap got bigger. I changed the cassette to a 12-27, which helped, and then a 12-29 which helped again.
When the new bike came it had a 52-36 with 11-28 which has grown to 11-32. If I were you I would keep that steel bike (sounds lovely!) and try to find an ebay bargain with a compact chainset.

darkhairedlord

ilovegrace wrote:

I have a planet x london road and a look 566.
Get dropped on climbs on the px . We are evenly matched if not better than the other chaps when on the look.
Same climbs same lads i ride with , it most certainly is the bike in my case.
Regards
ILG

or the tyres

bice

DaveP1 wrote:

My previous bike (3 years ago) had a Campag 53-39 and a 12-25 cassette. I could keep up with my mates until we got to longer steeper hills, and then without exception they would all sit and spin away from me on their compact cranksets. I would be out of the saddle, grinding away at a low cadence, and they would be pootling away as the gap got bigger. I changed the cassette to a 12-27, which helped, and then a 12-29 which helped again.
When the new bike came it had a 52-36 with 11-28 which has grown to 11-32. If I were you I would keep that steel bike (sounds lovely!) and try to find an ebay bargain with a compact chainset.

The trouble is there is no simple solution to a compact.

I do have a Xenon triple but it is 52, 42, 30. It is worth a shot, but I don't know whether the Centaur shifters will reach or whether the front mech will work. I suspect both will after a fashion. (And the Xenon is roughly made compared to the Record.)

Another option, maybe, is to fit a Power Torque compact, which means dumping both the 102mm Chorus BB I am using now and the 111 BB I have for the triple (but never used). I don't know how difficult it is to fit Power Torque cranks to an old steel frame.