This isn't a close pass

kingrollo

According to West Mercia Police. Video was submitted in plenty of time (next day) and although west mercia police traced the driver they decided not to take any further action - please share vid.

https://youtu.be/3_pmV70OZmI

svetty

A tad close but hardly worth getting bothered about.

animal72

You're right, it isn't.

john1967

If thats not a close pass then how close does it have to be before it is one. FFS that is too F##cking close and i would be having words with the driver if id got the opportunity to catch up.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

Depends how wide the road is there, but at 36secs, you can clearly see the driver's side wheel is inside the central dashed wide line.

It looks way closer than a 1.5 metre passing gap, like the rider could have touched the car with their hand by reaching sideways.

drhaggis

It's a bit too close, plus the overtake happens when another car is coming on the opposite lane. If that car does something slightly out of the ordinary, the OP will suffer the consequences. The video isn't long enough, but it seems the driver could have made everyone's lives nicer by waiting an extra 5 seconds.

DeVlaeminck

Hard to tell just how close it is, obviously closer than ideal but I'm not surprised the police took no action based on the video.

slowbike

Well - I'm pretty certain that if that had been in Sussex, the operation crackdown team would've sent a letter to the registered owner.

Yes, it's a close pass, and yes, it's dangerous - but it wasn't at speed and wasn't agressive - so I can understand the non-action part - in terms of a prosecution anyway - but it still needs pointing out to the driver that they could've waited 5 seconds and overtaken properly.

defever

Interesting footage and police response, thanks for sharing.

Personally, if I were the rider, I would have felt the car was definitely close. No doubt about that. But equally, I would have not felt that I was in grave danger. I think there’s more to it in this situation than simply the distance between the cyclist and the overtaking car.

I perceived the footage as follows. I realise that I’m watching a footage and that’s different from being at the scene as the cyclist. The car does not seem to be excessively speeding (wild guessing at 25-30mph?) at the time of overtaking. I wonder how fast the cyclist was going (roughly 15mph?). Also, the car was advancing at steady line. The path of the cyclists seemed to be clear (i.e. no debris, pot holes, or drain to avoid in immediate distance). Luckily, there was no imminent need for evasive action by the cyclist at the time of overtake. For these reasons, I wouldn’t have sweat over it, despite the car being clearly close to the rider.

One would say that these factors don’t mater, close pass is a close pass. It is written on the Highway Code Rules 162 - 169*. Another may consider the above factors and made judgement on case by case. Had this particular situation been different, for example, if the car overtook the rider at faster speed (i.e. 50-60mph at national speed limit zone), if the vehicle been a larger or heavy goods vehicle, if there was a patch of uneven road surface ahead and the cyclist needed to change the course of his/her path, etc, then perhaps the police response may have been different.

*By the way, where does this figure of 1.5m (or I’ve heard 3ft, which is actually 0.9m) space between cyclist and overtaking vehicle come from? I just checked the relevant Highway Code rule (hyperlinked above) but there’s no such figure indicated. The closest Rules I can reference are:

Rule 163:
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should:
give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car.

Rule 213
Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.

I am not against the 1.5m / 3ft / 0.9m figures, but there doesn’t seem to be clarity around this? Like with anything in life, rules and laws don’t seem to be as clear as they claim… I stand corrected, and willing to be educated by fellow and knowledgeable cyclists.

Safe and happy cycling everyone.

kingstongraham

If you don't think that was too close, you have some variety of Stockholm syndrome.

But yes, I am also not surprised no action was taken.

imafatman

At least it was slow. I had more than a few of those at high speed over the weekend.

Seems like large parts of Essex are fed up of cyclists, but then again I did see large trains of them in massive groups which meant cars had no chance of over-taking. Like 40 cyclists bunched up. I can't say I see the appeal myself.

slowbike

imafatman wrote:

I did see large trains of them in massive groups .... Like 40 cyclists bunched up. I can't say I see the appeal myself.

Oh I dunno ..

1) effortless riding (unless you're on the front)
2) chatting with like minded folk
3) usually a nice coffee & cake stop

although group riding is far more stressful on the brain - having to concentrate on the movements of other riders in close proximity isn't something that quickly picked up - and then remembering not to brake hard needs to be taken into consideration too!

wiznaeme

defever wrote:

*By the way, where does this figure of 1.5m (or I’ve heard 3ft, which is actually 0.9m) space between cyclist and overtaking vehicle come from? I just checked the relevant Highway Code rule (hyperlinked above) but there’s no such figure indicated. The closest Rules I can reference are:

Rule 163:
Overtake only when it is safe and legal to do so. You should:
give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car.

Rule 213
Motorcyclists and cyclists may suddenly need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles such as drain covers or oily, wet or icy patches on the road. Give them plenty of room and pay particular attention to any sudden change of direction they may have to make.

The last time I was in Spain there were road signs instructing drivers to give cyclists a gap of 1.5 meters. This may be one of the sources of this figure.

For what it’s worth, I don’t think this overtake was safe. Firstly there was oncoming traffic and secondly the driver doesn’t even bother to cross the central markings.

I would ask the police if they intend to give the driver advice. If they say no I would press them on it via supervisors.

drhaggis

WiznaeMe wrote:

The last time I was in Spain there were road signs instructing drivers to give cyclists a gap of 1.5 meters. This may be one of the sources of this figure.

The law in Spain explicitly states the overtaking vehicle must leave at least 1.5 meters to bicycles (and motorcycles). However, from what I've seen in the Highway Code (162-163 & 212), there's nothing explicit about the space. However, the highway code clearly states you must give way to vehicles in the oncoming direction. For obvious reasons.

svetty

WiznaeMe wrote:

I would ask the police if they intend to give the driver advice. If they say no I would press them on it via supervisors.

:shock: :shock: If it was blatantly dangerous I would agree but frankly this is a significant over-reaction. There's too much of an 'us vs them' mentality generally and hyping incidents like this doesn't help - IMO of course.

slowbike

Svetty wrote:

WiznaeMe wrote:

I would ask the police if they intend to give the driver advice. If they say no I would press them on it via supervisors.

:shock: :shock: If it was blatantly dangerous I would agree but frankly this is a significant over-reaction. There's too much of an 'us vs them' mentality generally and hyping incidents like this doesn't help - IMO of course.

Shock? If this was an urban street with nose-to-tail traffic then you could understand that it's normal. On an open road when there's plenty of opportunity for the person overtaking to give "plenty of room" - Rule 163

give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car (see Rules 211 to 215).

The driver in the video doesn't make much attempt to alter course or speed - seemingly quite happy to pass close to another moving vehicle - does that warrant prosecution? Nope - not unless it's a regular occurrence - but (IMHO at least) it's worth a reminder letter and keeping the incident on record for a while. Hopefully a reminder is all it takes - as (so far) it seems to have done for a colleague who passed me too close - I just showed him the footage (without his number plate in view) and he accepted that perhaps it was a little close - next time he went past me he gave me the whole lane. We don't usually have the opportunity to present the evidence to the driver ourselves (probably best!) - and the best mechanism we have of doing so is for our Police forces to do it - which is why quite a number have the close pass initiatives going on. We don't need teddies out the prams, people being locked up and/or losing their licence - just for them to be a little more appreciative of what is Our Space on the road.

imafatman

Slowbike wrote:

imafatman wrote:

I did see large trains of them in massive groups .... Like 40 cyclists bunched up. I can't say I see the appeal myself.

Oh I dunno ..

1) effortless riding (unless you're on the front)
2) chatting with like minded folk
3) usually a nice coffee & cake stop

1> i guess if you want cheap miles under your belt.

2> yes granted, but you aren't chatting with 40 people, the quality of the social interaction is practically nil at that sort of group size.

3> this is required irrespective of how many people i'm riding with!

I totally get cycling with a group, I do it occasionally, though in far smaller numbers, but I do have some sympathy with drivers on country lanes if they are faced with a group that large because it effectively means no possibility to overtake safely, and then that leads to muppets doing unsafe overtakes. At the very least a group that big should split itself up into smaller groups, i dunno like 8-10 riders max, and give themselves a 30 second gap.

slowbike

imafatman wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

imafatman wrote:

I did see large trains of them in massive groups .... Like 40 cyclists bunched up. I can't say I see the appeal myself.

Oh I dunno ..

1) effortless riding (unless you're on the front)
2) chatting with like minded folk
3) usually a nice coffee & cake stop

1> i guess if you want cheap miles under your belt.

2> yes granted, but you aren't chatting with 40 people, the quality of the social interaction is practically nil at that sort of group size.

3> this is required irrespective of how many people i'm riding with!

I totally get cycling with a group, I do it occasionally, though in far smaller numbers, but I do have some sympathy with drivers on country lanes if they are faced with a group that large because it effectively means no possibility to overtake safely, and then that leads to muppets doing unsafe overtakes. At the very least a group that big should split itself up into smaller groups, i dunno like 8-10 riders max, and give themselves a 30 second gap.

1) yup - it's nice sometimes - especially when there's a good headwind
2) true, normally a couple I guess
3) I wish

yup agree with you 8-10 riders is enough before you need to start thinking about splitting. I've been there when a group of 20+ riders came through a country lane, taking up all of it with barely a nod to me (also on my bike) trying to go the other way. Don't see it often though

awavey

KingstonGraham wrote:

If you don't think that was too close, you have some variety of Stockholm syndrome.

But yes, I am also not surprised no action was taken.

its maybe not stockholm syndrome, just world weariness that passes like that are far too common to think they do count as a close pass, doesnt mean they are any better to experience, but there wasnt anything glaringly standout wrong about it so yeah Im not surprised the police werent interested.

mfin

kingrollo wrote:

According to West Mercia Police. Video was submitted in plenty of time (next day) and although west mercia police traced the driver they decided not to take any further action - please share vid.

https://youtu.be/3_pmV70OZmI

I think you're wasting police time. Do you really think they should be spending time and resource taking action on that 'incident'? If so, you're mad. The police have extremely limited resources, everybody knows it, those resources need to be used wisely, not wasted with crap like this. People reporting any old thing like this stops the police from being available to do valuable work.

You need to recalibrate your brain for what you think is dangerous.

I'm not saying it's good driving, it is not, but worthy of reporting? Get real.

redvision

Difficult to tell but doesn't look too close.
However, defo closer than the 1.5m vehicles are supposed to give.

john1967

A lot of macho bullshit going on here. Pause that video at 0.35 secs and then imagine yourself on that bike. This is a close pass and the police taking no action is the reason drivers believe they can do what they like.
There was zero margin for error and one mistake could have cost the cyclist his life.

redvision

john1967 wrote:

A lot of macho bullshit going on here. Pause that video at 0.35 secs and then imagine yourself on that bike. This is a close pass and the police taking no action is the reason drivers believe they can do what they like.
There was zero margin for error and one mistake could have cost the cyclist his life.

To be fair the rider hasn't helped himself by riding so close to the verge. He should have been in secondary position which would have prevented the temptation of the driver to sneak through.

Granted the driver should have waited for a safe, appropriate passing opportunity, but as cyclists we also have to ride with awareness, such as road position, to minimise the chances of such incidents occurring.

john1967

redvision wrote:

john1967 wrote:

A lot of macho bullshit going on here. Pause that video at 0.35 secs and then imagine yourself on that bike. This is a close pass and the police taking no action is the reason drivers believe they can do what they like.
There was zero margin for error and one mistake could have cost the cyclist his life.

To be fair the rider hasn't helped himself by riding so close to the verge. He should have been in secondary position which would have prevented the temptation of the driver to sneak through.

Granted the driver should have waited for a safe, appropriate passing opportunity, but as cyclists we also have to ride with awareness, such as road position, to minimise the chances of such incidents occurring.

Victim blaming nonsense.The cyclist has the right to be exactly were he/she is.The driver must wait.This is all about driver education not cyclists putting themselves at further risk by being in the so called primary position.

DeVlaeminck

Can't say my first thought was isn't that cyclist too close in to the verge - they aren't on the white line or it appears even that close to it.

What exactly is secondary position - is that not normal riding position - 50-60cm plus from the edge of the road - it looks to me that they are in secondary position and if they are actually much closer in to the edge then it wouldn't have been a close pass as the car is a fair bit further out than that.

But in any case you can ride further out and maybe discourage overtaking but the payoff is that some drivers will squeeze past anyway and of course they'll then be even closer - and some may be aggravated by you "holding up traffic" and pass close to punish you.

redvision

DeVlaeminck wrote:

What exactly is secondary position - is that not normal riding position - 50-60cm plus from the edge of the road - it looks to me that they are in secondary position and if they are actually much closer in to the edge then it wouldn't have been a close pass as the car is a fair bit further out than that.

Look at 30 seconds in, he does start off in secondary position in the video but around 30 seconds in moves right over to the verge/ line. Perhaps this was because he heard the cars behind, but moving over like that doesn't help as it gives the driver the temptation to pass.

There will always be one who tries to squeeze by no matter what your position is, but riding in the correct position on the road can help prevent this.

Having said this, when/if the 1.5m pass rule does come in to force in more counties then it wouldn't matter how close to the verge the cyclist is, the police would have to contact the driver to educate them.

bobmcstuff

Clearly a bad overtake but if I reported it every time I got passed like that to the police I would probably get locked up for wasting police time. As it happens daily.

haydenm

john1967 wrote:

Pause that video at 0.35 secs and then imagine yourself on that bike.

This. I suspect it would have felt a lot closer than it looks in the video.

mamil314

The pass was close and in violation of code, but, at your and overtaking car's speeds, it did not look to me like you were in danger.

chunkytfg

Not especially close in my opinion but perhaps that comes from living near london and having to deal with the associated travel.

This one ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gfp6WnzfZ8w ... is the only time i've bothered to report a driver and thats only because they actually hit me and then just briefly paused and drove off. Driver was offered a driver alertness course and has apparently refused it in favour of taking his day in court! Should be interesting to see how it turns out.

awavey

john1967 wrote:

A lot of macho bullshit going on here. Pause that video at 0.35 secs and then imagine yourself on that bike. This is a close pass and the police taking no action is the reason drivers believe they can do what they like.
There was zero margin for error and one mistake could have cost the cyclist his life.

its not macho bullshit, for once, and I dont have to imagine being in that kind of situation, I am in that exact situation probably at least once a week on average Id say, depends how many times or how far I ride, and Im sure its the same for anyone on the road who cycles regularly.

as close passes go, certainly for me and Ive had a few recently where Ive felt I had to take avoiding action to prevent being hit, that didnt look that bad, almost a standard overtake in those circumstances on that road Id have said,and they havent sped past, or cut immediately back across or do that weird triangle overtake where they end up furthest across the road after theyve passed you,theres no road furniture they are rushing to get back in front before hand, they arent putting oncoming traffic in unnecessary danger, its not a left hook, they dont brake test, all of these are things that happen often with passing traffic.

yeah it still probably wasnt nice, youd prefer they didnt happen or the car get that close, and maybe depending on where your frame of mind is at the time it affects you more sometimes than not, but I cant get worked up about overtakes like that anymore