Turbo and power meter

barongreenback

Morning all

Having had a good experience with my winter training on a Tacx Flow, I’ve decided to upgrade to an Elite Direto. I was wondering if there is any benefit to buying a power meter for my bike as well. To be honest my training outdoors isn’t that structured and with the expense of the Direto, the most I could stretch to is a single sided meter like a 4iiii. Am I better off just sticking to power for indoors? I’m not looking to race, just improve general speed/power. Alternatively is there a better (ie cheaper but with similar resistance/max gradient) option for a direct drive trainer where I could power match from the crank? Thanks in advance.

timothyw

What are your reasons for upgrading the turbo?

If a large part is the interest in more accurate power readings, you should just get a proper power meter instead.

barongreenback

Would like a higher gradient simulation and a better power range. The Flow is limited in ERG mode as the power range for a given gear is quite narrow so you end up changing gears a lot when you’re doing a sprint based workout.

So at the moment I use my winter bike and swap over skewers/wheels etc, which is a pain on the limited decent days when it’s nice to be outside in the winter.

timothyw

Well, personally I would get the Direto and hold on until you can afford a dual sided power meter, although they aren't actually that much more expensive, eg I just bought a power2max ngeco with FSA gossamer chainset for £450.

If you're skipping the indoor training with the nice weather, it might make more sense to get a power meter now and get the new trainer in October.

StillGoing

You won\t match power from the crank on a turbo trainer. The drive chain loss with the turbo taking readings from the flywheel as opposed to the cranks, mean there will always be a difference. The Direto power meter is pretty accurate at +/- 1%.

cougie

Just get a turbo with an accurate power meter. Unless you want the PM to race with outside. But it's MUCH easier training to power on a turbo than the open road.

barongreenback

Thanks all.

@Philthie - I had Trainerroad’s power matching in mind where it alters the resistance based on your own PM rather than the trainer. So if there was a cheaper direct drive trainer out there with similar performance but no PM, then that could be an option. Don’t really care what the absolute number is, just that it’s consistent so I can measure my training and progress.

@Cougie - this was my thinking about the PM. I don’t live in an area with long climbs or roads free of junctions, hence why training outdoors is tricky apart from doing a few drills based on perceived effort.

@Timothy - wasn’t aware of that PM. Will look into it.

Thanks all!

StillGoing

The Direto power is consistent. I use it with Sufferfest and a Power2max on the road.

Djd3737

ERG on my Direto was awful, luckily it developed a fault and was able to return it and get something else, as the ERG mode really was pretty much unusable, plenty of chat about it on the Facebook group.

BTW Zwift had an option to take power from your PM and controlling the Flow in ERG mode, but that also worked dreadfully for me using Powertap P1 (not sure if it is still available).

I saved up for longer in the end and got a Neo, it is been faultless.

EBEB

The maximum gradients also depend on completely unrealistic wheel speeds: who cycles up a steep hill at 35kph? I too once had a flow and out grew it. It was an old skool non F-EC one, but it got to me that it couldn’t simulate high slopes even in the highest gear unless they were so short I could maintain a high wheel speed.

DavidJB

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

barongreenback

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

StillGoing

barongreenback wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

Like all products, there will be some that have faults. Some early production Diretos have a belt issue and Elite are sending new belts out to anyone whose belt breaks during the warranty period. Re power and accuracy; all of the main testers report the same thing, that the claimed accuracy of 2% is not what they believe and more like 1% and better. ERG mode works perfectly unless you're trying to do short intervals of sudden acceleration. I've not heard of any trainer that can accurately cope with that as if you aren't hitting the intended power quickly, you go into the spiral of death. I've had mine almost a year and never had a problem with it.

DavidJB

barongreenback wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

Well mine it over reads by 10% against my Garmin Vector 2's. But it is a consistent 10%. Also the ERG mode is useless for anything less than 30 seconds. It also sometimes randomly goes mega hard at the start of a ride and you have to re-start Zwift. I also find ERG mode very crap to use if you've got a interval where it's right on your limit because as your pedal RPM starts to slow it gets harder and harder and forces you to stop the interval rather than in dumb mode where you could drop off for a few seconds and finish strong.

And Re: DC Rainmaker, he also said the powertap p1's were reliable so I'd take his reviews (or any reviews) with a pinch of salt.

Overall I wish I'd just bought he best dumb trainer I could.

norvernrob

DavidJB wrote:

barongreenback wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

Well mine it over reads by 10% against my Garmin Vector 2's. But it is a consistent 10%. Also the ERG mode is useless for anything less than 30 seconds. It also sometimes randomly goes mega hard at the start of a ride and you have to re-start Zwift. I also find ERG mode very crap to use if you've got a interval where it's right on your limit because as your pedal RPM starts to slow it gets harder and harder and forces you to stop the interval rather than in dumb mode where you could drop off for a few seconds and finish strong.

And Re: DC Rainmaker, he also said the powertap p1's were reliable so I'd take his reviews (or any reviews) with a pinch of salt.

Overall I wish I'd just bought he best dumb trainer I could.

Does the calibration number match the offset on the bottom of your Direto closely enough? My Direto is pretty much bang on with my Power2max, maybe it’s your Vectors that under-read...

And yeah, with erg mode if your cadence starts to drop and you can’t produce the power anymore then it’s going to get too hard to pedal. What you are doing with a dumb trainer is dropping off the power and taking a break, you don’t get to do this with erg mode as the trainer will adjust the power so if you’re doing 200w @ 100rpm then drop your cadence to 60rpm it’s suddenly going to feel a whole lot harder to churn the pedals around. (Death spiral I think it’s called). It’s not the trainers fault, any in erg mode will do the same.

You want to finish an interval at a given wattage in erg mode, you need to produce that power regardless of your cadence. There are no breaks!

DavidJB

NorvernRob wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

barongreenback wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

Well mine it over reads by 10% against my Garmin Vector 2's. But it is a consistent 10%. Also the ERG mode is useless for anything less than 30 seconds. It also sometimes randomly goes mega hard at the start of a ride and you have to re-start Zwift. I also find ERG mode very crap to use if you've got a interval where it's right on your limit because as your pedal RPM starts to slow it gets harder and harder and forces you to stop the interval rather than in dumb mode where you could drop off for a few seconds and finish strong.

And Re: DC Rainmaker, he also said the powertap p1's were reliable so I'd take his reviews (or any reviews) with a pinch of salt.

Overall I wish I'd just bought he best dumb trainer I could.

Does the calibration number match the offset on the bottom of your Direto closely enough? My Direto is pretty much bang on with my Power2max, maybe it’s your Vectors that under-read...

And yeah, with erg mode if your cadence starts to drop and you can’t produce the power anymore then it’s going to get too hard to pedal. What you are doing with a dumb trainer is dropping off the power and taking a break, you don’t get to do this with erg mode as the trainer will adjust the power so if you’re doing 200w @ 100rpm then drop your cadence to 60rpm it’s suddenly going to feel a whole lot harder to churn the pedals around. (Death spiral I think it’s called). It’s not the trainers fault, any in erg mode will do the same.

You want to finish an interval at a given wattage in erg mode, you need to produce that power regardless of your cadence. There are no breaks!

Yes, you're trying to teach me to suck eggs, I've been training using a turbo for 10 years. I'm not talking about 200w....I'm talking about 550w for a minute x 8...it's better to slightly drop to 530 and pick it up again then have ERG kill it completely and naturally you can't always hit the power for the last one or two, but its better to do whatever you can than nothing at all.

ERG is great for bashing out those 20 minute zone 3/4 dull intervals but anything short in intensity where you'll struggle by the end it's practically useless. I also find the ramping up of the trainer disrupts the flow of a minute effort. It has it's purpose but it has many flaws.

timothyw

How long have you been training with Erg Mode? Could you suggest a trainer which does behave as you are describing, or do they only exist in your imagination?

Sounds to me like it's working exactly as designed.

C_P_

erg mode is awful i have a tacx neo and never use it in erg mode only in slope mode.

norvernrob

DavidJB wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

barongreenback wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Directo power over-reads by 10%. Also I just snapped the belt on mine after 7 months use. Known issue apparently...they are sending me a new belt.

Odd because DC Rainmaker and Shane Miller didn’t find that with their array of other power meters.

Anyway, plan is to get the Direto and have a look at the pedalling analysis. If I have a big left/right discrepancy then I save up for a dual sided meter and if not, a cheaper single sided option will be fine.

Thanks again for all the opinions and advice.

Well mine it over reads by 10% against my Garmin Vector 2's. But it is a consistent 10%. Also the ERG mode is useless for anything less than 30 seconds. It also sometimes randomly goes mega hard at the start of a ride and you have to re-start Zwift. I also find ERG mode very crap to use if you've got a interval where it's right on your limit because as your pedal RPM starts to slow it gets harder and harder and forces you to stop the interval rather than in dumb mode where you could drop off for a few seconds and finish strong.

And Re: DC Rainmaker, he also said the powertap p1's were reliable so I'd take his reviews (or any reviews) with a pinch of salt.

Overall I wish I'd just bought he best dumb trainer I could.

Does the calibration number match the offset on the bottom of your Direto closely enough? My Direto is pretty much bang on with my Power2max, maybe it’s your Vectors that under-read...

And yeah, with erg mode if your cadence starts to drop and you can’t produce the power anymore then it’s going to get too hard to pedal. What you are doing with a dumb trainer is dropping off the power and taking a break, you don’t get to do this with erg mode as the trainer will adjust the power so if you’re doing 200w @ 100rpm then drop your cadence to 60rpm it’s suddenly going to feel a whole lot harder to churn the pedals around. (Death spiral I think it’s called). It’s not the trainers fault, any in erg mode will do the same.

You want to finish an interval at a given wattage in erg mode, you need to produce that power regardless of your cadence. There are no breaks!

Yes, you're trying to teach me to suck eggs, I've been training using a turbo for 10 years. I'm not talking about 200w....I'm talking about 550w for a minute x 8...it's better to slightly drop to 530 and pick it up again then have ERG kill it completely and naturally you can't always hit the power for the last one or two, but its better to do whatever you can than nothing at all.

ERG is great for bashing out those 20 minute zone 3/4 dull intervals but anything short in intensity where you'll struggle by the end it's practically useless. I also find the ramping up of the trainer disrupts the flow of a minute effort. It has it's purpose but it has many flaws.

Well that’s how erg mode works, how long you’ve been using a turbo is irrelevant. It’s not a fault of the Direto. If your Direto is out of calibration with the numbers on the underside of the machine, you can adjust it yourself by tightening the belt. There’s an official Elite FB page with plenty of info on this.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

How long have you been training with Erg Mode? Could you suggest a trainer which does behave as you are describing, or do they only exist in your imagination?

Sounds to me like it's working exactly as designed.

And the nail is hit on the head.

DavidJB

Seems to me like a bunch of people own ERG and want it to be good because they spent loads of money on it. Sorry guys, it's crap, dumb trainers are better for turbo training. A turbo trainer that does what I want is the elite fluid one. Anyone I speak to who's a serious rider thinks ERG is w4nk. The idea is good, however, the execution is poor...maybe in a few years when ramp up time is sub second eh?

Anyone want to buy an Elite Directo ?

jgsi

Direct drive Muin with Misuro b adapter for Zwift racing - you cannot beat the 17% power boost to mess up the B category.
Zwift is a means to an end not the be all and end all of cycling.
BUT proper statistical analysis - using the 4iii data fit file into Golden Cheetah.
The Muin is old stock now, so some great deals on it.
It is so super quiet having suffered with wheel on turbos for so many years and being a complete annoyance to everyone around.
Plus being clamped into the thing properly, you can almost mimic real world sprinting practise.

I have no desire to an over expensive trainer with modes like ERG or Zwift incline control - money better spent on time training and a lighter bike build.

Mikey23

Its amazing how folks respond to the question they would liked you to have asked rather than the one you did...

So having used a power meter indoors, is there any benefit to using one outdoors? My answer is a qualified yes. Regardless of your level of ability and your ambitions. I have a simple and cheap one which covers all my needs (powerpod since you asked) and it has made a massive difference to my cycling. Riding to my power capabilities as opposed to chasing speed ...