Tao Geoghegan Hart's trophy cabinet (may contain traces of spoiler)

phreak

gsk82 said:

You can get a second hand bike for £200 and low cost summer kit for maybe £150. It isn't cheap, but you can do it far cheaper than has been suggested above

I'd love to know how many youngsters competing at the sharp end of races are doing so on a £200 bike.

phreak

ddraver said:

phreak said:

It's perhaps illustrative that Ineos, and Sky before them, have partnered with extremely expensive brands, whether Pinarello bikes, Rapha cycling gear, or Belstaff today. It's all aimed at the luxury end of the market.

Well...yeah, but FdJ (?) used Decathlon stuff not so long ago. Rabbobank sponsored an awful lot of Dutch cycling (indeed, Dutch Sport). There are ways it can be done.

It's not all Waxed Cotton Jackets

For sure, and I wouldn't like to make comments about the cycling scene in the rest of Europe, as it's quite possible that it's stayed true to the sport's roots in a way it hasn't in the UK, where the popularity has boomed in the last 10-15 years, especially in the "MAMIL" market.

I'm just saying that it's much harder to see Marcus Rashford being able to get into cycling in the way he got into football, and that's less down to any overt discrimination as it is the cost of the sport.

gsk82

phreak said:

gsk82 said:

You can get a second hand bike for £200 and low cost summer kit for maybe £150. It isn't cheap, but you can do it far cheaper than has been suggested above

I'd love to know how many youngsters competing at the sharp end of races are doing so on a £200 bike.

I'm talking about getting kids in deprived areas in to cycling, joining their local club, maybe doing a bit of racing if they get in to it, not winning 1st cat races as soon as they pick up a bike. Anyone talented enough to be a pro would be wiping the floor with everyone, even if they were riding a second hand caad7 anyway.

flite

I think Rich has the answer, at least in UK.
Councils provide lots of football pitches, Schools have football as a main sport, Clubs make facilities and coaching available in a centralised location and on a regular basis.
There is much more opportunity (and role models, good and bad) for young folks in football, so a much bigger talent pool. It's big business.
Cycling is very much a minority sport still.
Clubs have done a lot with GoRide to bring on youngsters, but mostly in off-road disciplines and they still need a lot of parental support to get themselves and a bike to the sessions. And a lot of self-motivation to be different to their class mates.
It's even worse for girls. Being interested in sport is still seen as a bit odd in a society obsessed with make-up and clothes.

RichN95.

The thing is how many kids even do an organised bike race before they are 18? 1%? I doubt it's as high as 5%.
If you got 18 years old list the sports they have tried in an organised manner, football is number 1, athletics number 2. For many there isn't a number 3. This leads to two things:
1. High black representation in football and athletics
2. High representation of privately educated people in the British Olympic team

blazing_saddles

He’s in the boss breakaway today in Haut Var.

yorkshireraw

RichN95. said:

The thing is how many kids even do an organised bike race before they are 18? 1%? I doubt it's as high as 5%.
If you got 18 years old list the sports they have tried in an organised manner, football is number 1, athletics number 2. For many there isn't a number 3. This leads to two things:
1. High black representation in football and athletics
2. High representation of privately educated people in the British Olympic team

I grew up as an athlete (MD / XC runner). Never thought of our family as particularly well off but age 15 I started training with a club in one of the more deprived areas of the UK - some of the lads I trained with were brilliant talents (far more than I had) but it was obvious they didn't all have stable home lives or a lot of family disposable income. Luckily in those times a lot of clubs still put on coaches to meetings / races but I think a lot of that has gone now (so people need a family car or a lift) - and nearly all those I can think of dropped out the sport around 17/18 when out of the school system. But for the time they competed they were equal to whoever they raced on the track and hopefully they gained some confidence / sense of achievement from their performances, that they took forward in life.

I have a concern now with the rise of the £250 racing shoes which have now come into T&F - they make a genuine difference - I estimate about 1 second a lap over 800/1500m. That's the difference between some kid making a national or regional final on merit or being beaten by one who's parents can lay out the cash for the spikes. It has distorted what was one of the most accessible sports and where if you were good enough you could win, regardless of the cost of what was on your feet.

Looks like Nike have abandoned the ridiculous sprint spikes they were planning on launching this year - with launch being the operative word - they were half way to being springs.

Pross

yorkshireraw said:

RichN95. said:

The thing is how many kids even do an organised bike race before they are 18? 1%? I doubt it's as high as 5%.
If you got 18 years old list the sports they have tried in an organised manner, football is number 1, athletics number 2. For many there isn't a number 3. This leads to two things:
1. High black representation in football and athletics
2. High representation of privately educated people in the British Olympic team

I grew up as an athlete (MD / XC runner). Never thought of our family as particularly well off but age 15 I started training with a club in one of the more deprived areas of the UK - some of the lads I trained with were brilliant talents (far more than I had) but it was obvious they didn't all have stable home lives or a lot of family disposable income. Luckily in those times a lot of clubs still put on coaches to meetings / races but I think a lot of that has gone now (so people need a family car or a lift) - and nearly all those I can think of dropped out the sport around 17/18 when out of the school system. But for the time they competed they were equal to whoever they raced on the track and hopefully they gained some confidence / sense of achievement from their performances, that they took forward in life.

I have a concern now with the rise of the £250 racing shoes which have now come into T&F - they make a genuine difference - I estimate about 1 second a lap over 800/1500m. That's the difference between some kid making a national or regional final on merit or being beaten by one who's parents can lay out the cash for the spikes. It has distorted what was one of the most accessible sports and where if you were good enough you could win, regardless of the cost of what was on your feet.

Looks like Nike have abandoned the ridiculous sprint spikes they were planning on launching this year - with launch being the operative word - they were half way to being springs.

As an aside, I don't know about the sprint shoes but having had a pair of Next % for just over a year they definitely help me run faster. However, I got a pair of the ZoomX Invincible for daily running on Saturday and they have the ZoomX foam but no plate (carbon or otherwise) that seems to have always been the focus of the controversy with the shoes. Running in the new ones yesterday it was apparent that the bounce comes more from the foam than the plate, they are like trampolines to the point that it felt a bit too much at slower paces.

ddraver

A similar vibe from Ski Sunday this week...

Slightly ironically as one of the presenters has a reputation for muscling out grass-root ski clubs in favour of her own expensive ski schools that make her a fat pile of cash from the trust-fund-gaap-yahh set.

RichN95.

When Tao made his pledge to sponsor a rider at Axeon (partly to help out Axeon) it was widely praised, apart from one person. Self-appointed voice cycling Marlon Moncrieffe. Via his black champions condemned him. White saviour, token gestures etc. He guessed Tao had put up £50,000 in his article.

He also tweeted this:



Let's have a full look at that picture on the left:




He is literally comparing Tao's gesture with slave ownership. Screw this guy. White journalists will not say a thing as they are worried about the consequences. But I'm saying that is appalling

Pross

RichN95. said:

When Tao made his pledge to sponsor a rider at Axeon (partly to help out Axeon) it was widely praised, apart from one person. Self-appointed voice cycling Marlon Moncrieffe. Via his black champions condemned him. White saviour, token gestures etc. He guessed Tao had put up £50,000 in his article.

He also tweeted this:



Let's have a full look at that picture on the left:




He is literally comparing Tao's gesture with slave ownership. Screw this guy. White journalists will not say a thing as they are worried about the consequences. But I'm saying that is appalling

When it was announced I was expecting something along the lines of "he's loaded and could do more" like when Aaron Ramsey donated money to keep a homeless shelter going or the sort of trolling Rashford gets but even my cynicism didn't expect that. My stubbornness would probably result in me saying "f*** you then" and pull my funding.

I hope the idiots are getting smashed on Twitter but from my limited experience of Twitter I suspect not.

rick_chasey

Have to say I think this is a fascinating take.

TGH's perspective is obvious and I don't need to spell it out (and I'm sympathetic to his POV too), but as an exercise it's really interesting to try to understand Moncrieffe's.

I guess I should say I'm not going to say I have fully understood it, but I have tried.

I guess if you believe in structural racism (and I think it's fair to say that that is a reality), then you can see almost everything white people do through the prism of that racism.

In this instance, I guess it's a white guy getting plaudits, praise, and ultimately great positive publicity off the back of all this racism, i.e. a white person exploiting the racism for his own gain.

FWIW I don't think this is the motive (obviously) and I think that he is sticking his neck out by doing this - he doesn't have to, after all.

Ultimately you're going to get heat if you do go public with something political - it shouldn't be a surprise if it comes from all sides. Equally, and I think TGH would probably agree, black people shouldn't have to be grateful for every white person who decides to do something positive about racism, even if it is net positive (and let's be generous, this probably is).

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Have to say I think this is a fascinating take.

TGH's perspective is obvious and I don't need to spell it out (and I'm sympathetic to his POV too), but as an exercise it's really interesting to try to understand Moncrieffe's.

I guess I should say I'm not going to say I have fully understood it, but I have tried.

I guess if you believe in structural racism (and I think it's fair to say that that is a reality), then you can see almost everything white people do through the prism of that racism.

In this instance, I guess it's a white guy getting plaudits, praise, and ultimately great positive publicity off the back of all this racism, i.e. a white person exploiting the racism for his own gain.

FWIW I don't think this is the motive (obviously) and I think that he is sticking his neck out by doing this - he doesn't have to, after all.

Ultimately you're going to get heat if you do go public with something political - it shouldn't be a surprise if it comes from all sides. Equally, and I think TGH would probably agree, black people shouldn't have to be grateful for every white person who decides to do something positive about racism, even if it is net positive (and let's be generous, this probably is).

For me it just shows you have "extremism" on all sides and that there will be some who look for a negative slant in any action to support their own extreme view (plus they don't like anything that goes against their narrative, in this case the lack of support for black people in cycling). If racism and inequality disappeared overnight he would effectively become irrelevant and people don't like being irrelevant.

No_Ta_Doctor

I agree with Rick here. Moncrief had some interesting and worthwhile points in his article.

The general idea that there's some white self-congratulatory stuff going on, where we all receive some sort of vicarious absolution because we like and retweet Tao is worth making.

Likewise the point that grassroots investment is needed.

A lot of the rest of it misses some important aspects, like that the financial side of the sponsorship is probably less important than the coaching and mentoring - at least from an activist point of view. We can't all chuck money at anti racism, but many can maybe offer something else, including being actively anti racist in our interactions.

I think he's pretty harsh on Tao in many ways - the suggestion it's PR, the overstated power and resources he attributes to him (I mean, he's only just won a GT as a young rider, he's hardly the patron of the peloton), that he didn't take a knee on the podium (did Hamilton? Any athletes? The knee always seems to be pre game /race, not in victory).

And yeah, that slave auction tweet is provocative to say the least. As was his original tweet response to Tao's announcement. In longer form he shouldn't be dismissed though.

davidof

RichN95. said:

Self-appointed voice cycling Marlon Moncrieffe.

Isn't he descended from slave traders himself?

bobmcstuff

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/02/everything-is-political-tao-geoghegan-hart-exclusive