Tubeless woes

ronbei

Last week I received my new tubeless ready new wheels and tubeless tires (Schwalbe Pro One, 25 mm). The tires came with a sealant (Schwalbe Blue). I mounted my tires: rim tape, valve, tires and sealant (30ml in each tire), inflated them to 85psi. One tire leaked air the first day or two but then kept pressure very well.

I went for a couple of shorter rides, no problems.

This weekend I did two long rides (200km each).

First thing noted, they are very comfortable.

But... I had two flats on my first ride. The first one deflated too much that I had to stop and spin my wheel, reinflate and it finally did the trick.

Second flat, it didn't seal. I gave up, put a tube in and rode the rest of ride.

Both punctures looked relatively small, less than a mm. I thought that this would fix itself magically. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Is the sealant not good (Schwalbe Blue)? I want to give tubeless another chance, it might just be my lack of experience.

Ronald

bobones

After a few episodes with non-sealing punctures I moved to Orange Seal sealant and it has been great so far. It seems to work better a high pressures than others. I also carry the tubeless repair "worms" and rubberized super glue for larger holes. Make sure you look closely at non-sealing punctures to remove stones or other debris than may be preventing the sealant from working.

Andymaxy

If you want puncture resistance, orangeseal is the best period. The annoying thing is that it dries up every two months and need to be topped off. Schwalbe pro one is a race tire, it's definitely not good in terms of puncture resistance, maybe get something else.

cycleclinic

I always wondered if orange seal lasted longer than effetto and from your account it doesn't.

I am going to put a photo of a demo tyre filled with worms. Some more went in on Friday and the bloody thing is still holding air. Generally if the hole does not seal with a worm it is because you need a bigger worm.

ronbei

Thanks for the advice. I got some Orange Seal today. Will investigate the punctures in detail, clean and remount the tire.

milemuncher1

Tubeless is not a great idea on a (relatively) high pressure road set up, for the reasons you’ve just discovered. The main advantages of tubeless, is lower weight, and being able to run lower pressures, and not get pinch flats. This is a brilliant thing on low pressure / mountain bike set ups, but I don’t see the advantage on a high(er) pressure road type set up. In my experience, even a small puncture on a high pressure road tyre, leads to rapid loss of sealant, which doesn’t get a chance to do it’s job, before the tyre is at a uselessly low pressure. You can get little things ( known as worms ) to put in any significant holes, punched into the tyres, but they are a faff, in comparison to just having a normal tubed set up. Seating a tubeless tyre is more tricky than a standard tyre and tube set up as well. You can buy ‘capacitor pumps’ which give an initial hard charge of air, to seat the tubeless tyre, but if you’ve not got it set right initially, you’re going to end up looking like slimer ( from Ghostbusters) has had a go on you, if you’re not careful.

lincolndave

I have been using tubeless for a while now, at a pressure of approx 85 psi, 2 weeks ago I came home from a ride, I did not clean the bike because it was dry , and I had only cleaned it and re lubricated the chan the day before, the following day I got the bike out, checked the front tyre no problem, checked the back tyre no problem either then I noticed dried on sealant on the seat tube and chain stays, I had a closer look at the tyre and could see where the sealant had sealed the tyre, I checked the pressure it had dropped to approx 75 psi, that was using orange endurance sealant with a irc roadlite tyre, I topped up the sealant in the tyre pumped it up and I am still running that same tyre with no further problems.
To me it’s not a faff running tubless tyres, I know one day a tyre will be unrepairable on the road side, but that can also happen with a clincher and inner tube

StillGoing

Lincolndave wrote:

I have been using tubeless for a while now, at a pressure of approx 85 psi, 2 weeks ago I came home from a ride, I did not clean the bike because it was dry , and I had only cleaned it and re lubricated the chan the day before, the following day I got the bike out, checked the front tyre no problem, checked the back tyre no problem either then I noticed dried on sealant on the seat tube and chain stays, I had a closer look at the tyre and could see where the sealant had sealed the tyre, I checked the pressure it had dropped to approx 75 psi, that was using orange endurance sealant with a irc roadlite tyre, I topped up the sealant in the tyre pumped it up and I am still running that same tyre with no further problems.
To me it’s not a faff running tubless tyres, I know one day a tyre will be unrepairable on the road side, but that can also happen with a clincher and inner tube

I run at 80psi. Initial inflation was done easily enough with a standard track pump, so no need for expensive gizmos to get the initial seal. I'm currently using Stans latex sealant with Mavic Yksion Pro UST tyres as they came with the wheels. I'll carry worms for the puncture that won't seal with sealant and for the nay sayers fearing holing a tyre that can't be repaired with worms either, carry a spare innertube. Any tyre can be holed to not be repairable and inserting a worm seems a lot less hassle than removing the wheel, tyre and tube and putting it all back again.

cycleclinic

tubeless works for higher pressure dont listen toithe naysayers. you have to carry a 1.5mm and 3.5mm wide tyre worms for effective reapirs. without these ones you might might as well leave home with tubed tyres without a spare tube.

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

To me inner tubes are faff having to carry so many. I rode 220 miles on tubeless on monday. the one puncture I got self sealed - golden.

lincolndave

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

Andymaxy

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Tubeless is not a great idea on a (relatively) high pressure road set up, for the reasons you’ve just discovered. The main advantages of tubeless, is lower weight, and being able to run lower pressures, and not get pinch flats. This is a brilliant thing on low pressure / mountain bike set ups, but I don’t see the advantage on a high(er) pressure road type set up. In my experience, even a small puncture on a high pressure road tyre, leads to rapid loss of sealant, which doesn’t get a chance to do it’s job, before the tyre is at a uselessly low pressure. You can get little things ( known as worms ) to put in any significant holes, punched into the tyres, but they are a faff, in comparison to just having a normal tubed set up. Seating a tubeless tyre is more tricky than a standard tyre and tube set up as well. You can buy ‘capacitor pumps’ which give an initial hard charge of air, to seat the tubeless tyre, but if you’ve not got it set right initially, you’re going to end up looking like slimer ( from Ghostbusters) has had a go on you, if you’re not careful.

Have you even used a PROPER tubeless setup before???

roger_merriman

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

That is also why folks chose to stay with tubes, it’s not that it can’t be done, but that the hassle factor is higher. And expense etc.

milemuncher1

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

Bollocks, tubeless on a road bike is a crack idea, just because you’ve been mugged by the snake oil salesmen, never mind eh?

milemuncher1

Andymaxy wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Tubeless is not a great idea on a (relatively) high pressure road set up, for the reasons you’ve just discovered. The main advantages of tubeless, is lower weight, and being able to run lower pressures, and not get pinch flats. This is a brilliant thing on low pressure / mountain bike set ups, but I don’t see the advantage on a high(er) pressure road type set up. In my experience, even a small puncture on a high pressure road tyre, leads to rapid loss of sealant, which doesn’t get a chance to do it’s job, before the tyre is at a uselessly low pressure. You can get little things ( known as worms ) to put in any significant holes, punched into the tyres, but they are a faff, in comparison to just having a normal tubed set up. Seating a tubeless tyre is more tricky than a standard tyre and tube set up as well. You can buy ‘capacitor pumps’ which give an initial hard charge of air, to seat the tubeless tyre, but if you’ve not got it set right initially, you’re going to end up looking like slimer ( from Ghostbusters) has had a go on you, if you’re not careful.

Have you even used a PROPER tubeless setup before???

Yes, at that level, tubs are a better bet.

milemuncher1

oxoman wrote:

Just one thing about carrying a tube as a get out of jail thing when running tubeless, make sure you have the means to remove the valve on your rim.

A very good point.

Andymaxy

Milemuncher1 wrote:

oxoman wrote:

Just one thing about carrying a tube as a get out of jail thing when running tubeless, make sure you have the means to remove the valve on your rim.

A very good point.

They are supposed to be hand tight, if it's hard to remove, you probably made it too tight.

Oh and don't tell me the sealant make it more difficult, sealant has no shear strength.

steve_sordy

I can't comment on high pressure tubeless because I have never used it.

I always use sealant in tyres I use tubeless. Note that I didn't say "tubeless tyres". If you use a latex sealant, then even non-tubeless tyres can be used without a tube. Even when I used proper UST tubeless tyres that don't actually need a sealant to stay inflated, I still used sealant. I do so, because even high spec tubeless tyres can get punctures. I ride a lot in the woods and I have one tyre that had over two dozen punctures in it. I know that because overnight, the green sealant I was using at the time would show a pinprick where the puncture was. The tyre stayed up as long as it had sealant in it.

There are several things that even a good dose of sealant won't fix.
1) Poor sealing of the spoke holes by porous rim tape (on my grandson's bike).
2) Or by poorly applied rim tape. This happened to me on a brand new bike with rims that were supposedly "tubeless ready"! One of them wasn't!
3) Tears in the tyre wall. Especially failures at the bead where you can't see them until the tyre has actually deflated. (Happened to me twice).
4) Poor seating of the tubeless valve. I now always wrap several layers of PTFE plumber's tape around the valve seat before setting it into the valve hole in the rim. Then I give it a firm tap with a soft hammer (just to make sure it's properly in!)

milemuncher1

steve_sordy wrote:

I can't comment on high pressure tubeless because I have never used it.

I always use sealant in tyres I use tubeless. Note that I didn't say "tubeless tyres". If you use a latex sealant, then even non-tubeless tyres can be used without a tube. Even when I used proper UST tubeless tyres that don't actually need a sealant to stay inflated, I still used sealant. I do so, because even high spec tubeless tyres can get punctures. I ride a lot in the woods and I have one tyre that had over two dozen punctures in it. I know that because overnight, the green sealant I was using at the time would show a pinprick where the puncture was. The tyre stayed up as long as it had sealant in it.

There are several things that even a good dose of sealant won't fix.
1) Poor sealing of the spoke holes by porous rim tape (on my grandson's bike).
2) Or by poorly applied rim tape. This happened to me on a brand new bike with rims that were supposedly "tubeless ready"! One of them wasn't!
3) Tears in the tyre wall. Especially failures at the bead where you can't see them until the tyre has actually deflated. (Happened to me twice).
4) Poor seating of the tubeless valve. I now always wrap several layers of PTFE plumber's tape around the valve seat before setting it into the valve hole in the rim. Then I give it a firm tap with a soft hammer (just to make sure it's properly in!)

All very good points, well made.

StillGoing

roger merriman wrote:

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

That is also why folks chose to stay with tubes, it’s not that it can’t be done, but that the hassle factor is higher. And expense etc.

Its less hassle to fix a tubeless puncture than swap an inner tube over or patch a tube with a tyre and tube combination. With tubeless, if it isn't fixed with the sealant doing its job, a worm will fix it. If the worm can't fix it, stick an inner tube in. Rarely, if ever, is the inner tube going to be required. The cost factor has been worked out by some on You Tube land to be less expensive than tyre and tube combinations dependant on your choice of tyre. But, hey, my carbon bike is more expensive than my neighbours old aluminium one; should I not have bought an expensive bike?

oxoman wrote:

Just one thing about carrying a tube as a get out of jail thing when running tubeless, make sure you have the means to remove the valve on your rim.

As has already been pointed out, the valves are hand tight. If you can't undo a hand tight valve, maybe you should hit the gym more often?

Milemuncher1 wrote:

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

****, tubeless on a road bike is a crack idea, just because you’ve been mugged by the snake oil salesmen, never mind eh?

This advice comes from someone advocating grinding up hills on another thread. I suppose spinning up hills is snake oil too?

roger_merriman

philthy3 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

That is also why folks chose to stay with tubes, it’s not that it can’t be done, but that the hassle factor is higher. And expense etc.

Its less hassle to fix a tubeless puncture than swap an inner tube over or patch a tube with a tyre and tube combination. With tubeless, if it isn't fixed with the sealant doing its job, a worm will fix it. If the worm can't fix it, stick an inner tube in. Rarely, if ever, is the inner tube going to be required. The cost factor has been worked out by some on You Tube land to be less expensive than tyre and tube combinations dependant on your choice of tyre. But, hey, my carbon bike is more expensive than my neighbours old aluminium one; should I not have bought an expensive bike?

In terms of hassle it’s more the initial setup than ongoing. Be that having to get the right stuff, and then setting it up etc.

Since most will need to buy a reasonable amount of new kit, unless someone has a staggeringly amount lot of punctures they aren’t going to make it back in innertubes bought. A lot of YouTube working is Man Maths and this is one of them.

That’s not to say it isn’t a interesting tech.

StillGoing

roger merriman wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

That is also why folks chose to stay with tubes, it’s not that it can’t be done, but that the hassle factor is higher. And expense etc.

Its less hassle to fix a tubeless puncture than swap an inner tube over or patch a tube with a tyre and tube combination. With tubeless, if it isn't fixed with the sealant doing its job, a worm will fix it. If the worm can't fix it, stick an inner tube in. Rarely, if ever, is the inner tube going to be required. The cost factor has been worked out by some on You Tube land to be less expensive than tyre and tube combinations dependant on your choice of tyre. But, hey, my carbon bike is more expensive than my neighbours old aluminium one; should I not have bought an expensive bike?

In terms of hassle it’s more the initial setup than ongoing. Be that having to get the right stuff, and then setting it up etc.

Since most will need to buy a reasonable amount of new kit, unless someone has a staggeringly amount lot of punctures they aren’t going to make it back in innertubes bought. A lot of YouTube working is Man Maths and this is one of them.

That’s not to say it isn’t a interesting tech.

I've bought nothing extra other than tyre worms. I always used Stans latex sealant with inner tubes anyway and had it on the shelf. My old inner tube acts as an emergency repair for that once in a lifetime puncture that won't seal. My track pump dealt with the initial inflation without problem. Can't see the point you're trying to make.

zefs

Get a good tubeless setup and nothing to worry about. I am impressed so far with Mavic UST, tires mount by hand, easy to seal with normal pump, no rim tape needed, tires stay seated when deflated etc.

roger_merriman

philthy3 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

Lincolndave wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

Exactly Malcolm, you have hit the nail, firmly on the head.

That is also why folks chose to stay with tubes, it’s not that it can’t be done, but that the hassle factor is higher. And expense etc.

Its less hassle to fix a tubeless puncture than swap an inner tube over or patch a tube with a tyre and tube combination. With tubeless, if it isn't fixed with the sealant doing its job, a worm will fix it. If the worm can't fix it, stick an inner tube in. Rarely, if ever, is the inner tube going to be required. The cost factor has been worked out by some on You Tube land to be less expensive than tyre and tube combinations dependant on your choice of tyre. But, hey, my carbon bike is more expensive than my neighbours old aluminium one; should I not have bought an expensive bike?

In terms of hassle it’s more the initial setup than ongoing. Be that having to get the right stuff, and then setting it up etc.

Since most will need to buy a reasonable amount of new kit, unless someone has a staggeringly amount lot of punctures they aren’t going to make it back in innertubes bought. A lot of YouTube working is Man Maths and this is one of them.

That’s not to say it isn’t a interesting tech.

I've bought nothing extra other than tyre worms. I always used Stans latex sealant with inner tubes anyway and had it on the shelf. My old inner tube acts as an emergency repair for that once in a lifetime puncture that won't seal. My track pump dealt with the initial inflation without problem. Can't see the point you're trying to make.

I don’t think that will be most folks experiences, this thread is “tubless woes” that you haven’t need to buy sealant/rimtape/trackpump with booster etc.

Clearly not every one will need all of that, though some might.

Most people don’t have tubless ready rims, so will need new wheels or tubless conversation ie rim tape etc. That some folks do and don’t is great but doesn’t mean that most do.

StillGoing

Several wraps of electricians tape do the job of sealing the rim on standard wheels. 89p.

roger_merriman

philthy3 wrote:

Several wraps of electricians tape do the job of sealing the rim on standard wheels. 89p.

Maybe, for your tyre and rim combo though granted that is getting easier ie tyres are getting better. but its by no means sure and at higher pressures there is a potential risk (slight) of a blowoff, though at CX or even Gravel tyres thats unlikely.

this still leaves sealant, most people don't have sealant hanging around, which you will use and need to top up, tubeless valves.

you might be able to get them up with just a track pump equally other combinations, of rim/tyre and how used to tubeless they are. they may not. hence the spread of experiences from this is a doddle to it left me stranded, bit my dog, and sh*t in my bed.

I'm not saying it can't be done, because clearly it can, and it seems to be getting easier as the tech is getting better but equally there are understandable reason why people will stick to tubes.

cycleclinic

Somehow I avoid all these problems. The valve collar needs to be tight or it can work loose and your tyre goes soft. Learnt that the awkward way. That meant I started leaving my tubes at home and looked for other solutions.

Tubeless is only faff if you make it faff.

StillGoing

roger merriman wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Several wraps of electricians tape do the job of sealing the rim on standard wheels. 89p.

Maybe, for your tyre and rim combo though granted that is getting easier ie tyres are getting better. but its by no means sure and at higher pressures there is a potential risk (slight) of a blowoff, though at CX or even Gravel tyres thats unlikely.

this still leaves sealant, most people don't have sealant hanging around, which you will use and need to top up, tubeless valves.

you might be able to get them up with just a track pump equally other combinations, of rim/tyre and how used to tubeless they are. they may not. hence the spread of experiences from this is a doddle to it left me stranded, bit my dog, and sh*t in my bed.

I'm not saying it can't be done, because clearly it can, and it seems to be getting easier as the tech is getting better but equally there are understandable reason why people will stick to tubes.

Seriously, you're inventing a problem that doesn't exist. £3.00 for Stans no tubes sealant, which is enough for two wheels. Track pump or Co2 won't inflate; use the local garage air compressor just to seal the bead. Where problems exist, is with the old school of tubeless tyres that were poor fitments or incorrectly converted wheels.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/stans-no-tubes- ... 4066957368

roger_merriman

philthy3 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Several wraps of electricians tape do the job of sealing the rim on standard wheels. 89p.

Maybe, for your tyre and rim combo though granted that is getting easier ie tyres are getting better. but its by no means sure and at higher pressures there is a potential risk (slight) of a blowoff, though at CX or even Gravel tyres thats unlikely.

this still leaves sealant, most people don't have sealant hanging around, which you will use and need to top up, tubeless valves.

you might be able to get them up with just a track pump equally other combinations, of rim/tyre and how used to tubeless they are. they may not. hence the spread of experiences from this is a doddle to it left me stranded, bit my dog, and sh*t in my bed.

I'm not saying it can't be done, because clearly it can, and it seems to be getting easier as the tech is getting better but equally there are understandable reason why people will stick to tubes.

Seriously, you're inventing a problem that doesn't exist. £3.00 for Stans no tubes sealant, which is enough for two wheels. Track pump or Co2 won't inflate; use the local garage air compressor just to seal the bead. Where problems exist, is with the old school of tubeless tyres that were poor fitments or incorrectly converted wheels.

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/stans-no-tubes- ... 4066957368

Since a surprising number of cyclists can't or struggle to change a tube, the idea that they will manage with a valve and some sealant, they have hanging about. is well optimistic.

yes some folks can and do. set it up while drinking a cup of tea i'm sure. others be that lack of knowledge or technical skills.

StillGoing

in which case, surely those people are the ones that are continually asking the LBS to service their bikes and fix their punctures. The fact that someone is too dim or lazy to do basic things, doesn't actually make the task arduous. I can't set V-brakes up for a perfect set up very quickly, but it doesn't mean its a difficult task.

Vino'sGhost

thecycleclinic wrote:

tubeless works for higher pressure dont listen toithe naysayers. you have to carry a 1.5mm and 3.5mm wide tyre worms for effective reapirs. without these ones you might might as well leave home with tubed tyres without a spare tube.

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

To me inner tubes are faff having to carry so many. I rode 220 miles on tubeless on monday. the one puncture I got self sealed - golden.

I rode 330miles last weekend in the wet no piunctures so what.

Road tubeless is cock

StillGoing

Vino'sGhost wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

tubeless works for higher pressure dont listen toithe naysayers. you have to carry a 1.5mm and 3.5mm wide tyre worms for effective reapirs. without these ones you might might as well leave home with tubed tyres without a spare tube.

All the naysayers simply dont get how to fix tubeless tyres properly. its arogance to think there is not a solution because they dont know about it.

To me inner tubes are faff having to carry so many. I rode 220 miles on tubeless on monday. the one puncture I got self sealed - golden.

I rode 330miles last weekend in the wet no piunctures so what.

Road tubeless is fool

Clearly it isn't and you're just being childish. :roll: