Politics- Should the Giro have not gone to Israel after yesterday?

salsiccia1

Dabber wrote:

My personal preference is that none of the GTs start outside of their own borders. Not for any particular political reason but purely for the fact that they were originally created to be tours of France, Italy and Spain.
I'm guessing that many here won't agree with that view just my two penneth.

Not a big deal for me btw.

I tend to agree with that, or at the very least only in neighbouring, contiguous countries. And I know that means no Yorkshire or London starts for the Tour, but so be it.

RichN95.

Dabber wrote:

My personal preference is that none of the GTs start outside of their own borders. Not for any particular political reason but purely for the fact that they were originally created to be tours of France, Italy and Spain.
I'm guessing that many here won't agree with that view just my two penneth.

Not a big deal for me btw.

First amongst those disagreeing would be those races finance departments

dabber

RichN95 wrote:

Dabber wrote:

My personal preference is that none of the GTs start outside of their own borders. Not for any particular political reason but purely for the fact that they were originally created to be tours of France, Italy and Spain.
I'm guessing that many here won't agree with that view just my two penneth.

Not a big deal for me btw.

First amongst those disagreeing would be those races finance departments

That I well understand and money talks but it doesn't change the basic principle for me.

RichN95.

Dabber wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Dabber wrote:

My personal preference is that none of the GTs start outside of their own borders. Not for any particular political reason but purely for the fact that they were originally created to be tours of France, Italy and Spain.
I'm guessing that many here won't agree with that view just my two penneth.

Not a big deal for me btw.

First amongst those disagreeing would be those races finance departments

That I well understand and money talks but it doesn't change the basic principle for me.

It’s not so much that money talks, more that without these foreign starts the races, especially the Giro & Vuelta, would go bust. The motivation is necessity, not greed. Italy and Spain have little money - they only have one WT between them.

dolan_driver

[quote="mididoctors It is hard to imagine the Giro prologue in Jerusalem was not timed to support the embassy opening ......[/quote]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Embassy_Act

It seems the USA have been planning to move their embassy to Jerusalem for quite a while now. I doubt the Americans called up RCS and asked if they could start the Giro as some kind of PR diversion. When did RCS first consider starting the race in Israel?

But who knows........................

DD.

tangled_metal

I also think tour, giro and Vuelta should stay in their own countries. Or at most neighbouring countries as part of a stage. I also think it should be start from the last stage finish. Kind of a big loop around the relevant country. Without transfers that is. Just my perverse view.

The planning has been long in the US embassy transfer but the actual authority to proceed was a lot closer. Plus the actual moving on day could have been earlier or later. It quite easily could have been kept back until straight after the giro. I mean notification of the giro route and its section on Israel gets picked up by us state department. So they decide to prolong moving preparations a few months so the big ceremony falls after the showpiece sporting event. Not unreasonable idea. Trump is a reality TV showman afterall. I'm just surprised the state department heard about it. I mean the sport is no longer dominated by a US cyclist and US team so why would they know about it?

salsiccia1

Maybe the Israeli Government asked them to delay it so as to avoid showcasing their country against a backdrop of violence, which they knew would definitely come.

TheGardenGnome

The Israelis are not of the Sunni brand of Judaism, the idea of non-Sunnis running a country in the middle East is an unthinkable thing in the Sunnis school of thought. It's also pro American which is why Sunnis hate the Israelis. Maybe a bit of excessive use of force as well.

rick_chasey

As someone who has enjoyed 3 foreign grand departs, I’m a big fan of them.

I tend to diverge from the consesus that internatuon sport is inherently political; only if people want to make it so.

I don’t think the Giro organisers or the riders have well formed views on the conflict.

I don’t think it particularly lends an element of credibility to the host as this thread is testament to.

I think when the sport is directly linked to the political problems (such as slave like labour to build stadiums etc) then there’s better cause for the sport to say no.

But otherwise, pfft. We’re all too hypocritical otherwise.

I don’t think cycling will make a jot of difference to the outcome there, and at least some people who normally wouldn’t got to see some of the Giro.

tangled_metal

For me it's not about the politics, I just don't think they should leave the country they're a tour of. No logic in that view it's just that in some ways I think every European nation should have a tour within their nation's boundaries. Whether that tour has status of the big three is not important so long as it is a showcase of cycling talent and promotes the sport of cycling in the nation who holds it. If Israel wants a cycling race they should do their own. Tour of Britain is one such example.

Bear in mind I was a kid in the later years of the original milk race (70s). I was dragged to see it every year it visited Southport which was near where I lived. Including the year there was a circuit race day actually in Southport itself. Pro and amateur cyclists racing together. It was a great experience and got us out on our bikes more than ever after seeing it.

So politics are irrelevant but for me they're national events so stick to the boundaries of the nation hosting.

StillGoing

Topper harley wrote:

And if we are getting all political, I look forward to the day Israel decides to unleash hell on the hell hole countries in that area, and make no mistake they will push Israel and the patience will snap...its only a matter of time

Totally agree. The fact that Hamas has come out and admitted that 50 of the 70 killed in the attempted border incursions were Hamas terrorists, says it all. Hamas' stated intention is to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth. If they'd succeeded in breeching the border, they'd have slaughtered 100s of Israeli civilians. Instead of jumping on the "Israel is bad" bandwagon, a few of the PC, tree hugging brigade should open their eyes more.

And that image of Jewish people "burning" the Israeli flag is so clearly photoshopped.

mididoctors

philthy3 wrote:

And that image of Jewish people "burning" the Israeli flag is so clearly photoshopped.

your fake, fake news detection is off

they burn it every year. I live in Stamford hill

to be fair they are a very small fraction of the Jewish community considered nut jobs by other Orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill.. but I think we would all find their lifestyle odd truth be told... i have no beef with the jews. living with them is easy and amicable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJnXX_d7QBU

veronese68

User incompetence

veronese68

Slowmart wrote:

Topper harley wrote:

And if we are getting all political, I look forward to the day Israel decides to unleash hell on the hell hole countries in that area, and make no mistake they will push Israel and the patience will snap...its only a matter of time

Unleashing hell, looking forward to it? You have to be a keyboard warrior of the saddest sort to use language like that.

Quite agree SM, I don't think unleashing hell is ever something to be celebrated.

knedlicky

Tangled Metal wrote:

For me it's not about the politics, I just don't think they should leave the country they're a tour of.

On my Giro feed today, the commentators were saying that there have been representatives from Bulgaria at the Giro the last couple of days, so the commentators were conjecturing that they might be trying to persuade the Giro to start in Sofia in a couple of years or so.

topper_harley

Veronese68 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Topper harley wrote:

And if we are getting all political, I look forward to the day Israel decides to unleash hell on the hell hole countries in that area, and make no mistake they will push Israel and the patience will snap...its only a matter of time

Unleashing hell, looking forward to it? You have to be a keyboard warrior of the saddest sort to use language like that.

Quite agree SM, I don't think unleashing hell is ever something to be celebrated.

so what should Israel do then?
these countries want Israel off the face of the earth, Israel has a right to defend itself and the time will come when Israel sorts that whole area out

DeVlaeminck

Topper harley wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

Topper harley wrote:

And if we are getting all political, I look forward to the day Israel decides to unleash hell on the hell hole countries in that area, and make no mistake they will push Israel and the patience will snap...its only a matter of time

Unleashing hell, looking forward to it? You have to be a keyboard warrior of the saddest sort to use language like that.

Quite agree SM, I don't think unleashing hell is ever something to be celebrated.

so what should Israel do then?
these countries want Israel off the face of the earth, Israel has a right to defend itself and the time will come when Israel sorts that whole area out

I think the objection is more to the fact you would look forward to that day, even if you thought such action was justified it doesn't seem like something that should be celebrated.

twotyred

After their history over the last few decades Israel can't be said to be a thriving democracy

Really? Its the closest thing to a liberal democracy that region has ever had

TheGardenGnome

twotyred wrote:

After their history over the last few decades Israel can't be said to be a thriving democracy

Really? Its the closest thing to a liberal democracy that region has ever had

Even taking into account the over reactive IDF, it's still the best place to be if you want to be free. See how well you'll get on as a minority in Egypt or Morocco.

salsiccia1

TheGardenGnome wrote:

twotyred wrote:

After their history over the last few decades Israel can't be said to be a thriving democracy

Really? Its the closest thing to a liberal democracy that region has ever had

Even taking into account the over reactive IDF, it's still the best place to be if you want to be free. See how well you'll get on as a minority in Egypt or Morocco.

That's a bit like celebrating being the world's tallest pygmy

rick_chasey

If you ever want clear evidence for why British colonial meddling is awful..

nickice

philthy3 wrote:

Topper harley wrote:

And if we are getting all political, I look forward to the day Israel decides to unleash hell on the hell hole countries in that area, and make no mistake they will push Israel and the patience will snap...its only a matter of time

Totally agree. The fact that Hamas has come out and admitted that 50 of the 70 killed in the attempted border incursions were Hamas terrorists, says it all. Hamas' stated intention is to wipe Israel off of the face of the earth. If they'd succeeded in breeching the border, they'd have slaughtered 100s of Israeli civilians. Instead of jumping on the "Israel is bad" bandwagon, a few of the PC, tree hugging brigade should open their eyes more.

And that image of Jewish people "burning" the Israeli flag is so clearly photoshopped.

You totally agree with that? I think Hamas are much worse than Israel (and take most of the blame for this incident) but I don't know if I'd agree with the above statement. By the way, I thought it was well known that there are groups of Orthodox Jews against Israel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neturei_Karta

mididoctors

Rick Chasey wrote:

If you ever want clear evidence for why British colonial meddling is awful..

the timescale of how these things play out is often missed by onlookers who have zero contextual or historical knowledge.

thegreatdivide

philthy3 wrote:

Totally agree. The fact that Hamas has come out and admitted that 50 of the 70 killed in the attempted border incursions were Hamas terrorists, says it all.

Says the Jerusalem Post and nobody else.

Read into that what you will.