Shimano 105 FD 5801

NickintheLakes

Help please!

Picked up my new bike (Trek Domane ALR5 Disc) just over a week back.

It is fitted with the 105 5801 front mech'. This has the onboard tension adjuster as it is the precursor to the new 105 R7000 series.

The bike also has a barrel adjuster too.

On delivery the FD was not set properly - the Top Trim worked and the Low Trim didn't. Cue me trying to set it up from scratch.

I have spent 5.5 hours on it in two shifts to no avail. Short of getting it back to the LBS and asking them to sort it or buying the older 5800 instead does anyone have any suggestions.

I have followed the instructions to the letter and can achieve the same result as the shop ie Top trim working and Low trim not or vice-versa.

Does anyone have any suggestions or hands on experience of dealing with these mech's - or the similar R8000 or R9000 FD's that use the same operating and adjusting principles?

buckmulligan

Interesting, I wasn't even aware that there was an updated version of the 5800 front derailleur. That's good news because the original one is a complete pain in the ass to set up properly if you don't have a inline barrel adjuster!

When you say the top/bottom trim "worked", do you mean that there's not enough range of motion in the mech to allow the shifter to click into the trim positions, or just that you're still getting chain rub in certain combos?

Have you tried adjusted the limit screws at all? If your lower limit screw isn't tight enough and you're relying on cable tension to keep the chain on the little ring, then you'll effectively be "wasting" some cable tension and not be able to get it to trim the big ring properly.

keef66

All the pictures online show the bike with the longer arm 5800 front mech, but I don't suppose the 5801 was available for the promo photography. Do you have the RS505 STIs it also lists in the spec?
If so, Shimano's compat chart says RS505 are compatible with your front mech, so they are clearly meant to work together. If I were you I'd go back to the shop and ask them to sort it. And perhaps not mention that you've been trying to adjust it. That way if something's broken or defective they should fix or replace without question.

I'm keen to know how you get on because I'm considering treating my best bike to a new groupset, either the outgoing 5800 or the imminent R7000 if it's a similar price.

What happened with the longer arm front mechs? I thought they made front shifting a lot easier? That's what a lot of the reviews for 4700, 5800, 6800 etc said anyway. Do the newer, stubby ones shift as well?? If so, how have Shimano managed it??

buckmulligan

Apparently the longer-arm on those front mechs could cause issues if you were running wide rims and/or tyres as is the trend these days, especially on gravel bikes with knobbly tyres etc.

The new compact design is to alleviate that issue, but can't speak for how easy it is to shift in comparison; you're right though the longer arms were a huge improvement over the stubby ones on 5700/6700/7900

NickintheLakes

My mate has exactly the same bike - it was one of the first batch that came into the UK last year and has the longer arm 5800. 5801 is fitted to the first batch of 2018 Uk bikes of which mine is one.

The 5800 long arm shifts fine. The cable end is very close to the 32mm tyres and needed a bit of fiddling with to avoid fouling the tyre.

I'd rather have 5800 that works than 5801 that doesn't.

Chatted with Trek Technical online last night and they admitted that the new mech's with onboard tension adjustment are 'difficult' to set up but work well once they are.

Spoke to the LBS today and they were very helpful and I'm taking it back either Friday or Saturday to rest it and show me how they do it. I hope they do better than their first attempt which wasn't correct ie no low trim and lots of chain rub on bottom 3 cogs on small ring and top 3 cogs on large ring.

I've run several iterations of 105 over the years and I've managed to avoid chain rub on every single one although I'd accept small/small and large/large.

Will update thread after visit to LBA.

NickintheLakes

BuckMulligan wrote:

Interesting, I wasn't even aware that there was an updated version of the 5800 front derailleur. That's good news because the original one is a complete pain in the ass to set up properly if you don't have a inline barrel adjuster!

When you say the top/bottom trim "worked", do you mean that there's not enough range of motion in the mech to allow the shifter to click into the trim positions, or just that you're still getting chain rub in certain combos?

Have you tried adjusted the limit screws at all? If your lower limit screw isn't tight enough and you're relying on cable tension to keep the chain on the little ring, then you'll effectively be "wasting" some cable tension and not be able to get it to trim the big ring properly.

Yes I've adjusted the limit screws as per the instructions umpteen times.

The process is basically this:

Use lower limit screw to line up outer edge of cage with outer edge of large chainring.

Hook up cable.

Adjust onboard tension adjuster until the two markers line up.

Adjust high limit screw in top trim position so that inside edge of inboard cage arm is 0.5mm from chain.

Adjust low limit screw in low trim position (the furthest inboard position) so that inside edge of inboard cage arm is 0.5mm from chain.

NickintheLakes

keef66 wrote:

All the pictures online show the bike with the longer arm 5800 front mech, but I don't suppose the 5801 was available for the promo photography. Do you have the RS505 STIs it also lists in the spec?
If so, Shimano's compat chart says RS505 are compatible with your front mech, so they are clearly meant to work together. If I were you I'd go back to the shop and ask them to sort it. And perhaps not mention that you've been trying to adjust it. That way if something's broken or defective they should fix or replace without question.

I'm keen to know how you get on because I'm considering treating my best bike to a new groupset, either the outgoing 5800 or the imminent R7000 if it's a similar price.

What happened with the longer arm front mechs? I thought they made front shifting a lot easier? That's what a lot of the reviews for 4700, 5800, 6800 etc said anyway. Do the newer, stubby ones shift as well?? If so, how have Shimano managed it??

Went back to LBS today and mechanic spent 40 minutes on it and the best he could do was set the two low positions ie on small chainring and the top two positions had only 1mm difference in cage position with the four largest cogs at the rear all exhibiting chain rub.

He said it was very difficult to do and the best he could do was a halfway house compromise position and that it wasn't very satisfactory.

So the FD 5801 has been swapped for the longer arm older FD 5800 and a new cable FOC - so great service from them.

keef66

Good result for you and excellent service from the shop!

I've read elsewhere that the newer generation chainrings are slightly further apart for better chainline / less chain rub with the wider spacing of rear disc wheels, and so the FD needs bigger jumps and a greater range of movement. Perhaps that was the cause of your difficulties...

I'm assuming the problems won't manifest themselves if using matching chainset and FD, ie both 5800 or both R7000.

However, I'm struggling to like the recent Shimano 4 arm designs so I was entertaining the idea of 5800 but with a Force chainset. Anybody done that?

NickintheLakes

keef66 wrote:

Good result for you and excellent service from the shop!

I've read elsewhere that the newer generation chainrings are slightly further apart for better chainline / less chain rub with the wider spacing of rear disc wheels, and so the FD needs bigger jumps and a greater range of movement. Perhaps that was the cause of your difficulties...

I'm assuming the problems won't manifest themselves if using matching chainset and FD, ie both 5800 or both R7000.

However, I'm struggling to like the recent Shimano 4 arm designs so I was entertaining the idea of 5800 but with a Force chainset. Anybody done that?

I think the difference is only 0,4mm wider. Not sure that that would cause the problems I had.

Spoke to a mechanic from another LBS today and he said that FD 5801 is a real pig to adjust and get right and the issues centre around getting the cable tension spot on. He also said that Low Trim and Low were very difficult to set ie little difference between the cage position being evident in the two positions.

My tension was spot on (the indicators lined up perfectly) and it still would not work properly.

My replacement FD 5800 is working perfectly (and even in the top position the tip of the long arm clears my 32mm tyres by around 6mm) and hopefully I can steer clear of Rxxxx for some years yet - at least until Shimano makes the older models obsolete!