Elite Direto not holding erg mode

gleaney
gleaney Posts: 32
Morning all. I appear to have an issue with my new Direto not holding erg mode whilst using trainer road.
It's all connected up using blue tooth and ANT+ On an iPad.
If I start a training session and the trainer road is setting say 150 watts. And all of a sudden if I increase the cadence the power will go up to say 300 watts ( target power is still showing 150 watts) but I cannot feel the turbo readjust the resistance to bring me back down to 150 watts as you'd expect in erg mode.
My power that I am pumping out just stays there.

Any thoughts?

Comments

  • If gear combo you are using has the power range for your target power (see Facebook Direto group, 34 chainring with 18 sprocket covers 84-480W iirc), don't change gear in erg mode.

    If you change cadence, it will take time for erg to correct the resistance. I've not increased cadence wildy in an erg workout, but the other day, my cadence droped from ~80 to ~50 during "the gorby" intervals and the Direto adjusted.
    ================
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  • the_rover
    the_rover Posts: 402
    Sorry, can’t help with your issue but it’s worth having a look at the elite direto page on face book.
    Elite also reply to questions/problems.

    Stuart.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,766
    I don't have a direto, but I do have TR, so my first thought would be to log a ticket with as much detail as possible, screenshots etc, and of the devices attached to the software.

    They were very helpful with both my trainers, and resolved all issues for me.

    Fwiw, they always recommend a usb extension cable for Ant+ connections, not sure if you are using bluetooth.

    Ooh, are you running in the small chainring?
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,195
    Have you done, but not finished an FTP test?

    Trainerroad switches over to slope mode from erg automatically. Unless you finish the test it doesn't switch in back. You can go in the settings and switch back on.

    Baffled me for a while too but all the more reason to keep going when you're doing an FTP test!
  • dannbodge
    dannbodge Posts: 1,152
    Is it connected with both Bluetooth and Ant+ at the same time as that could be the issue
  • Bordersroadie
    Bordersroadie Posts: 1,052
    gleaney wrote:

    Any thoughts?

    You've gone below the wattage floor of that gear ie when you increase cadence the speed of the flywheel is too high to produce such little power.

    Change into a lower gear.

    For most of the valleys in Trainerroad I have to drop to the small ring for the same reason.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Dannbodge wrote:
    Is it connected with both Bluetooth and Ant+ at the same time as that could be the issue

    The Direto is the first trainer to work with both ANT+ and BTE at the same time.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • gleaney
    gleaney Posts: 32
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    BoardersRoadie you’re exactly right. After a few emails from Elite and TrainerRoad this was the conclusion. After below a target of around 150 watts the internal frictions of the machine won’t allow it to go below 150watts so basically you have to slow your cadence down.
    Regards to connecting to Bluetooth and ANT+ at the same time. TrainerRoad suggest to connect to just one and forget the other as it can occasionally cause the machine to get confused.
    Hope this helps anyone else having a few teething confusing issues.
    Other than that which I have to say has been my understanding of how the machine works. I can honestly say the Direto is a fantastic piece of kit and if your thinking of getting one, do. You will not regret it.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    gleaney wrote:
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    BoardersRoadie you’re exactly right. After a few emails from Elite and TrainerRoad this was the conclusion. After below a target of around 150 watts the internal frictions of the machine won’t allow it to go below 150watts so basically you have to slow your cadence down.
    Regards to connecting to Bluetooth and ANT+ at the same time. TrainerRoad suggest to connect to just one and forget the other as it can occasionally cause the machine to get confused.
    Hope this helps anyone else having a few teething confusing issues.
    Other than that which I have to say has been my understanding of how the machine works. I can honestly say the Direto is a fantastic piece of kit and if your thinking of getting one, do. You will not regret it.

    ERG mode should work no matter what cadence you're doing or what gear you're in. The Direto is marketed as compatible with Zwift, TrainerRoad, Sufferfest etc and comes with free trial subscriptions to two of them, so surely should work. Accepted that some perform better via ANT+ or with BTE, but they should still work.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • Mine works but frustratingly, it takes 10 seconds or so to catch up on TR when there's a change in power. Whether it's because I'm using bluetooth or not I don't know, but it's pretty annoying.
  • Mine works but frustratingly, it takes 10 seconds or so to catch up on TR when there's a change in power. Whether it's because I'm using bluetooth or not I don't know, but it's pretty annoying.

    Have you looked at the power smoothing setting in the Elite app? I understand this May slightly improve things if you are looking for a sharper response to intervals.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Also, in ERG mode use the inner ring rather than the big ring and middle of the block.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • philthy3 wrote:
    Also, in ERG mode use the inner ring rather than the big ring and middle of the block.

    Thanks, I've been using the big ring so will try this tomorrow. Also, re power smoothing - I was told this is only really relevant if using an actual power meter and not a smart trainer? I have mine defaulted to 5.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Power smoothing is for how quickly you want the inbuilt power meter to respond to the force being put through the pedals. In your case, it is taking the average of 5 seconds as the reading.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    philthy3 wrote:
    gleaney wrote:
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    BoardersRoadie you’re exactly right. After a few emails from Elite and TrainerRoad this was the conclusion. After below a target of around 150 watts the internal frictions of the machine won’t allow it to go below 150watts so basically you have to slow your cadence down.
    Regards to connecting to Bluetooth and ANT+ at the same time. TrainerRoad suggest to connect to just one and forget the other as it can occasionally cause the machine to get confused.
    Hope this helps anyone else having a few teething confusing issues.
    Other than that which I have to say has been my understanding of how the machine works. I can honestly say the Direto is a fantastic piece of kit and if your thinking of getting one, do. You will not regret it.

    ERG mode should work no matter what cadence you're doing or what gear you're in.
    Not true. As has already been mentioned there is a chart that shows the min and max power the Direto can hold you to in ERG mode based on gear and cadence. This is because of the inertia of the flywheel. Different trainers have different ERG mode limitations.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    birdie23 wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    gleaney wrote:
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    BoardersRoadie you’re exactly right. After a few emails from Elite and TrainerRoad this was the conclusion. After below a target of around 150 watts the internal frictions of the machine won’t allow it to go below 150watts so basically you have to slow your cadence down.
    Regards to connecting to Bluetooth and ANT+ at the same time. TrainerRoad suggest to connect to just one and forget the other as it can occasionally cause the machine to get confused.
    Hope this helps anyone else having a few teething confusing issues.
    Other than that which I have to say has been my understanding of how the machine works. I can honestly say the Direto is a fantastic piece of kit and if your thinking of getting one, do. You will not regret it.

    ERG mode should work no matter what cadence you're doing or what gear you're in.
    Not true. As has already been mentioned there is a chart that shows the min and max power the Direto can hold you to in ERG mode based on gear and cadence. This is because of the inertia of the flywheel. Different trainers have different ERG mode limitations.

    The Direto has a light flywheel and responds to ERG mode better in the small ring. That is per TrainerRoad and Shane Miller.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    philthy3 wrote:
    birdie23 wrote:
    philthy3 wrote:
    gleaney wrote:
    Thanks for all the help and suggestions.
    BoardersRoadie you’re exactly right. After a few emails from Elite and TrainerRoad this was the conclusion. After below a target of around 150 watts the internal frictions of the machine won’t allow it to go below 150watts so basically you have to slow your cadence down.
    Regards to connecting to Bluetooth and ANT+ at the same time. TrainerRoad suggest to connect to just one and forget the other as it can occasionally cause the machine to get confused.
    Hope this helps anyone else having a few teething confusing issues.
    Other than that which I have to say has been my understanding of how the machine works. I can honestly say the Direto is a fantastic piece of kit and if your thinking of getting one, do. You will not regret it.

    ERG mode should work no matter what cadence you're doing or what gear you're in.
    Not true. As has already been mentioned there is a chart that shows the min and max power the Direto can hold you to in ERG mode based on gear and cadence. This is because of the inertia of the flywheel. Different trainers have different ERG mode limitations.

    The Direto has a light flywheel and responds to ERG mode better in the small ring. That is per TrainerRoad and Shane Miller.
    True, but it’s still not true to say that ERG mode should work for any wattage in any gear at any cadence because it shouldn’t and it won’t.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    It will/should with the inner ring. The resistance will eventually build to the set watts. We know this because if you don't meet the resistance, it will build and build until eventually you grind to a halt in the spiral of death. The speed of that build depends on the quality of the trainer. What you're confusing is the ability to "dig out" when you drop the cadence by accident or through fatigue. A bigger gear will make it easier to regain momentum.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • Having both done the power smoothing in the Elite app, marching the number on TR and using the inner ring, Erg mode now responds very quick and works like a dream. Thanks for the advice.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    philthy3 wrote:
    It will/should with the inner ring. The resistance will eventually build to the set watts. We know this because if you don't meet the resistance, it will build and build until eventually you grind to a halt in the spiral of death. The speed of that build depends on the quality of the trainer. What you're confusing is the ability to "dig out" when you drop the cadence by accident or through fatigue. A bigger gear will make it easier to regain momentum.
    No, I’m not confusing anything. You are just lacking the understanding of how the Direto works and it’s impact on how the Direto’s ERG mode works.

    Elite have published a chart showing the min and max wattages for ERG mode for given gear and cadence combinations when using the Direto. We know this because of the physical limits of the machine. The Direto uses a magnetic brake on the flywheel to generate resistance, the amount of resistance it can provide is limited by the abilities of this magnetic brake. It may be that your workouts fall entirely within the wattage range for whatever gear you’re using on the inner ring but it won’t be the case for everyone because someone doing a workout with a large range will exceed either the wattage floor or wattage ceiling and they will have to change gear/significantly alter their cadence to allow the Direto to hit the target. It is all about flywheel speed and the capabilities of the magnetic brake.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    And low and behold the obvious. Inner ring or big ring, you just need the one gear on the cassette and NO NEED TO BE CHANGING GEAR. :roll:
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    philthy3 wrote:
    And low and behold the obvious. Inner ring or big ring, you just need the one gear on the cassette and NO NEED TO BE CHANGING GEAR. :roll:
    No, still not true.

    Since you won't listen to my explanation of how the Direto works, maybe you will listen to Shane Miller:

    "Wattage Floor - You may need to change from your big ring to your little ring to hit your wattage targets in ERG mode. If your power target is below the wattage at which your trainer can apply resistance, you hit the "resistance floor" (also referred to as the “wattage" or "power" floor) and you won't feel resistance changes. Slowing the flywheel down by changing to an easier gear is sometimes required on the Direto when in ERG mode. See the Quick Tips below for the ERG Mode reference chart."

    g0GIFji.jpg

    Source: https://gplama.blogspot.com/p/indoor-trainer-guide-gplama.html

    Personally, many of the workouts I do on the Direto have warmups or cooldowns that go below 75W with intervals that go above 424W so I need to either change gear or significantly change my cadence to slow or speed up the flywheel to a speed where those targets are mechanically acheivable for a Direto.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    I'd say that you are a rarity and the majority will have upper and lower wattages in ERG mode that fit within the range of either the big or inner ring.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • birdie23
    birdie23 Posts: 457
    philthy3 wrote:
    I'd say that you are a rarity and the majority will have upper and lower wattages in ERG mode that fit within the range of either the big or inner ring.
    I'll take that as "Sorry, I was wrong about how the Direto works and you were correct to say that my claims were incorrect"

    They'll fit within the range of either the big or inner ring, yes but a large number of people will still need to change gear on the cassette to ensure they can meet their full set of wattage targets assuming they like to maintain the same cadence.
    2012 Cube Agree GTC
  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    I have been in touch with The Sufferfest to discuss similar problems I have been having recently.
    Where the Direto won't hold cadence on recovery intervals, it drops completely before recovering eventually. Also it won't apply enough resistance in the small ring to hold even moderate power ie circa 180w @ 90rpm. They responded:

    "That's interesting about switching from the small to large cog, that does point to it being an issue with the Direto. I have done a bit more research into the trainer and I don't think that 1-it is uncommon to have cadence issues with the internal cadence sensor and 2-some people have said that they have to shift gears as they ride to find the right combination to work at various efforts in ERG mode. At this point, it might be a good idea to contact Elite and see if they have any advice for you."
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    The answer is Kickr it seems unless you're Mr average and can stick in the inner or outer ring. I must be one of the fortunate ones as I can leave it in the middle of the cassette and inner or outer ring when the Direto decides to connect.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    Yes that’s my thought as well.
    I’m now beginning to wish I had spent the extra and bought a Kickr. Unfortunately all the evidence at the time pointed to the Direto being a good product. I’m not a powerful rider at all, so am surprised it can’t cope. Whether there is a problem with my unit I’ll wait and see what elite have to say. It is still under warranty so may get a replacement unit.
  • StillGoing
    StillGoing Posts: 5,211
    Mine is too, but all I get from Elite is do a calibration test (again and again) and now take the cover off and film the Direto on start up to check the tension bolt activates. I seem to have got around the connection problem by opening Sufferfest or TrainerRoad first, making sure that connection to everything else is off and then switching the Direto on. I can only presume, that the Direto has been hooking up to the first thing it finds, be it phone, PC or whatever preventing me finding it on the ipad when trying to connect.
    I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.
  • norvernrob
    norvernrob Posts: 1,448
    If you’ve ever connected your phone to the Direto, it will automatically connect whenever it’s in range even if you’re already connected to an iPad or connect to one afterwards. This causes erg mode to not work, I had the issue once until I disabled Bluetooth on my phone which solved it straight away.
  • yellowv2
    yellowv2 Posts: 282
    philthy3 wrote:
    Mine is too, but all I get from Elite is do a calibration test (again and again) and now take the cover off and film the Direto on start up to check the tension bolt activates. I seem to have got around the connection problem by opening Sufferfest or TrainerRoad first, making sure that connection to everything else is off and then switching the Direto on. I can only presume, that the Direto has been hooking up to the first thing it finds, be it phone, PC or whatever preventing me finding it on the ipad when trying to connect.

    Yes, so far they’ve asked me to do a calibration test and a level test! I waiting for their response to these.