Cycle to Work Scheme Moral dillemma

quickspace99

Here's a bit of philosophical reasoning for you:

Someone I know bought a bike through a cycle to work scheme.

They sent the big online retailer their voucher.

They received the bike.

9 months later, the cycle to work scheme said "you haven't chosen your bike yet"

Apparently the voucher has never been claimed.

If you did everything correctly but the bike company haven't done their bit, and you have almost finished your monthly payments, would you:

A) Tell the bike company of their mistake

Wait until the hire agreement is complete then claim a new bike?

bendertherobot

Morals and ethics aside, if the voucher has been "sent off", how could you re-use the voucher?

quickspace99

bendertherobot wrote:

Morals and ethics aside, if the voucher has been "sent off", how could you re-use the voucher?

Because you email the voucher to the company to process. If they don't process it, the bike scheme don't release the cash.

bendertherobot

Ok, your employer is taking payments so, clearly, something has been triggered. Those payments, generally, will be taken from you in order that they can pay the cyclescheme provider for the upfront cost they've incurred. So, while there has clearly been a breakdown, if you order another bike, legality aside, that's going to trigger the scheme asking your employer for money?

quickspace99

From what I understand, the cycle scheme deducts payments even if you haven't chosen your bike. You can completely clear your scheme and still have a valid voucher. The bike retailer is responsible for claiming from the scheme.

LWLondon

This hardly seems like a moral dilemma, more of a legal one. That's pretty much stealing... When the big bike company send off the voucher, if it's been "reused" they'll be told it's invalid. They would likely have your friends details, and chase them for payment. If your friend doesn't pay/hides, then it's a stolen bike.

quickspace99

LWLondon wrote:

This hardly seems like a moral dilemma, more of a legal one. That's pretty much stealing... When the big bike company send off the voucher, if it's been "reused" they'll be told it's invalid. They would likely have your friends details, and chase them for payment. If your friend doesn't pay/hides, then it's a stolen bike.

Well, no. She bought it last March and sent her voucher to the company. That is up to the company to cash. I don't see her claiming a new bike for ethical reasons, but that company has a limited time to claim the voucher.

bendertherobot

quickspace99 wrote:

From what I understand, the cycle scheme deducts payments even if you haven't chosen your bike. You can completely clear your scheme and still have a valid voucher. The bike retailer is responsible for claiming from the scheme.

The money needs to go somewhere. So, at some point, the employer will do a reconciliation with the cyclescheme provider and this will likely come up, an investigation will take place and your friend will be asked to confirm whether he has a bike so that payroll can refund him if not. Any representations that are false would be gross misconduct, and any attempts to get a second bike would likely fall within one of the dishonesty offences, though I'd have to look at which one. But, that's fairly clear legally and morally. Somewhere someone is going to spot this. Particularly when the cyclescheme DOES pay out then starts invoicing the employer.

tonysj

I don't think you should go there as if the company decide to inform Old Bill you haven't a leg to stand on, Its a easy to prove straight forward Fraud and just ask your self, Are you out of pocket in relation to the C2W scheme? No she has the bike the second bike IF she even gets one delivered or collected is not worth the risk.
quickspace99 I believe is right, when you price a bike and notify your employer of the amount your employer starts to collect the cash from your wages and the provider must have been notified in some way. Not sure it matters if you have the bike or not as to a degree those elements are different. I suppose you could pay the monthly deductions and not be in possession of the bike but who would allow that to happen. After all you went through all this faff to get a bike on the cheap so why would you not take the bike ASAP.
Leave well alone and tell her to enjoy the bike she has..
My 2 peneth...

cougie

Just tell them of the mistake.

It'll come out eventually. Being dishonest doesn't go down well with employers.

Is a bike worth possibly losing a job over ?

It's a really obvious answer.

cooldad

If you have to ask looking for justification, you know the answer.

Sorry, your friend...

lakesluddite

quickspace99 wrote:

From what I understand, the cycle scheme deducts payments even if you haven't chosen your bike. You can completely clear your scheme and still have a valid voucher. The bike retailer is responsible for claiming from the scheme.

This is the bit I'm struggling to get my head around. How can the Scheme/Company deduct payments before you choose a bike? How do they know how much to deduct?

I know when I did mine, the bike was bought, then the monthly deductions were then based on that exact amount.

End of the day, they've got a bike at approx 25-30% off, so fess up and don't take the p1ss.

wotnoshoeseh

quickspace99 wrote:

Here's a bit of philosophical reasoning for you:

Someone I know bought a bike through a cycle to work scheme.

They sent the big online retailer their voucher.

They received the bike.

9 months later, the cycle to work scheme said "you haven't chosen your bike yet"

The simple and correct response here is you tell the cycle to work scheme that you have received your bike - give them the evidence (a copy of the receipt from when you collected/received the bike), and let the C2W scheme fix their records.

keef66

I thought you were going to say you'd got a cycle to work bike but lived 50 miles from the office, down the M11, so there was never any realistic prospect of you actually using it to cycle to work. Like the girl in Accounts.

Or you'd spent the lot on a pair of carbon wheels for your TT bike and there's no way you're leaving it / them in the bike shed. Like one or two people I know.

They are more of a moral dilemma. I'd not lose sleep over either TBH; hardly in the same tax avoidance league as Google, Starbucks or Jimmy Carr.

What you're describing is an administrative cockup. I'm sure your friend is blameless but I'd suggest she tries to sort it out in case it could later be misconstrued as attempted fraud or theft.

fenix

I know of plenty of people who have bikes on the c2w scheme who don't use them for going to work. I'm not bothered about it. Just sad that my employer doesn't run one.

keef66

For years my employer kept refusing to run one. When they finally did, I already had more bikes than I could justify. Mildly annoying...

thistle_

I got my C2W bike 9 years ago, monthly payments taken but they never asked me for the final payment at the end of the hire. I told my employer at the time but nothing happened. I think there was something in the current guidance saying the value after 5 years is negligible (this came out after I started my hire agreement). I've still got and use the bike, they can have it back if they want.

Regarding the redemption/payments thing, I asked Cyclescheme how it works because in the short window we had to apply for the scheme, there wasn't a bike that I wanted. Their reply was:

cyclescheme wrote:

Certificates do not have an expiry date on them so you can hold off if there was a new model coming out etc, however your salary sacrifices will start whether the certificate is redeemed or not.

wolfsbane2k

My workplace C2W scheme is voucher based with a value that's agreed up front.
After applying for the voucher, they instantly took the first payment - and I'd not actually decided what I wanted to buy yet ( waiting for the right item at the right price), but only had 6 days to apply for the voucher.

The C2W voucher had an expiry period on it of 3 months after application, and even if I didn't use it by then, I couldn't get a refund.

So the details vary by C2W Scheme.

But - morally - let the scheme know, and don't obtain things illegally.

mr_mojo

I had a similar sort of dilemma. Years ago I bought a £4k mtb on 0% finance, anyway 6 months after getting the bike I still hadn’t made a payment. I phoned the bike shop and asked what was happening and somehow the bike was sent out but the finance was never sent in or something by the shop to the finance company.

I could of left it and had a “free” bike but my concisence is clear and I did the right thing.

gimpl

quickspace99 wrote:

LWLondon wrote:

This hardly seems like a moral dilemma, more of a legal one. That's pretty much stealing... When the big bike company send off the voucher, if it's been "reused" they'll be told it's invalid. They would likely have your friends details, and chase them for payment. If your friend doesn't pay/hides, then it's a stolen bike.

Well, no. She bought it last March and sent her voucher to the company. That is up to the company to cash. I don't see her claiming a new bike for ethical reasons, but that company has a limited time to claim the voucher.

Well - yes. It's much the same as having money incorrectly paid into your bank account which you know isn't yours and you go ahead and spend it anyway. Plenty of precedents on this where people have been prosecuted for theft.