Stems - what do you get by paying more?

neeb · February 2018

Stems are not a sensible application for carbon - best stick with alloy. Then it's largely a case of how much you want to spend to save weight, but this isn't necessarily to be scoffed at. If you can save 50g on your stem and another 50-100g each on your bars, saddle, pedals, etc it all adds up to maybe 300g. Save another 300g each on your wheels and groupset and you have a bike that's a kilo lighter on the same frameset. All weigh savings are trivial by themselves, but they are all necessary if you want a light bike.

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

neeb wrote:

Stems are not a sensible application for carbon - best stick with alloy.

What about integrated bars?

neeb · February 2018

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

neeb wrote:

Stems are not a sensible application for carbon - best stick with alloy.

What about integrated bars?

Different thing - you don't gain anything by using carbon for a stem. You probably don't lose much either, but there's just no point and it's more expensive. With integrated bars carbon makes much more sense, and the fact that the stem part is made of carbon is just an incidental necessity.

bungle73 · February 2018

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&sourc ... wamAhBCNna

Ta Daa

mamba80 · February 2018

Didnt a Pro Wheel also collapse on a Sky rider too? it goes to show how rare these things are on branded kit that it attracts so much publicity.

Having said that, i 'd not a buy a dirt cheap stem to put on my bikes, £40 to 60 rrp, (usually a lot cheaper in the sales) that should get you bolts that dont rust and be of good quality.

w00dster · February 2018

I didn't pay anything close to the RRP for that saddle, team has a deal with Trek, hence why all my bikes are Trek. Not sure the saddle is something Trek actually really sell to be honest. I think it's only available as some of the Segefredo guys have one. I had to wait about 4 months for it to become available in the U.K. The bike this is all going on was 8.5kgs. I just thought it would be fun to slowly reduce the weight and targeted 8kgs. This isn't my race bike, it's just for fun, that being said I have a couple of Gran Fondo's in Italy and potentially Spain where I'm contemplating taking the 8kg bike (Domane).
My expensive carbon stem came with the bike but it also came with fairly heavy bars. The only reason I'm looking at aero bars is to obviously gain that 2 or 3 watts and save some weight (the watts was a joke!), plus they look pretty good as well (the looks is the important bit for me) Groupset is going to be Ultegra 8000, I may leave the shifters as 105 hydraulic. I know they are considered ugly by most but for some reason I like them, also find they fit my riding style well (arms resting on the bars and hoods). I may go Dura Ace 9000 cranks, depends on deals at the time. I have to pay full RRP for Shimano (or full dealer price anyway)

I did look at integrated bars, but being honest £500 is hard to justify. I can get away with £200 here and there and Mrs W doesn't pay much attention, but she would with the £500.

I absolutely know I'm being a plank and wasting money, but reducing the weight and the aero bits is just for interest and a bit of fun. Plus I'm pretty new to fixing / fitting components myself so this is all good learning for me.

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

mamba80 wrote:

Didnt a Pro Wheel also collapse on a Sky rider too? it goes to show how rare these things are on branded kit that it attracts so much publicity.

Having said that, i 'd not a buy a dirt cheap stem to put on my bikes, £40 to 60 rrp, (usually a lot cheaper in the sales) that should get you bolts that dont rust and be of good quality.

Yep. Lot to be said of nice ever shiny titanium stem bolts!

w00dster · February 2018

I didn't think the wheel collapsed on the Sky rider, (Moscon), wasn't it his tubular rolling off? Could well be wrong but I thought the fact that he had a flat caused the tyre to come off and thus damage the wheel?

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

w00dster wrote:

I didn't think the wheel collapsed on the Sky rider, (Moscon), wasn't it his tubular rolling off? Could well be wrong but I thought the fact that he had a flat caused the tyre to come off and thus damage the wheel?

That was a TLJ rider I think. But tubs shouldn’t come off if glued properly even if flat

ravey1981 · February 2018

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

I'd quite like you to quantify what a "high chance" is exactly? Shall we assume that it must be over 50%, or it would be a "low chance". So going from there what you are saying is that over half of the Chinese unbranded carbon bars ever made have failed unexpectedly. B0llocks.

w00dster · February 2018

I think it was this one that was being referred to?
http://road.cc/content/news/218799-pro- ... ken-wheels

But looks like it may have not been an isolated incident.

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

w00dster wrote:

I think it was this one that was being referred to?
http://road.cc/content/news/218799-pro- ... ken-wheels

But looks like it may have not been an isolated incident.

I’m waiting for the ‘but he hit a pothole’ argument. But it’s a bloody wheel! It should be able to withstand that sort of thing!

ryan_w-2 · February 2018

I’ve had a £20 Kalloy stem which was awesome.

I have a £250 Enve stem which is awesome.

My definition of awesome, is that it attaches the bars to the rest of the bike.

Without a stem, I would have serious problems.

bungle73 · February 2018

ravey1981 wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

I'd quite like you to quantify what a "high chance" is exactly? Shall we assume that it must be over 50%, or it would be a "low chance". So going from there what you are saying is that over half of the Chinese unbranded carbon bars ever made have failed unexpectedly. B0llocks.

I think you seem to be missing the point. The point it is that if you purchase some random Chinese component then you have no idea about the quality of what you are getting. They can and have snapped on people - the evidence of that is out there for all to see.

w00dster · February 2018

Oh yeah completely agree that the wheel should withstand a short period of being run on a flat, that does look like the wheel failed.
I'm under no illusion that bike parts from a main retailer can and will fail. I would (wrongly) have a nag every time I was on the bike that it may fail. Every creak would make me think oh-oh. It would just lesson my enjoyment. And I know that's wrong, but unfortunately I'm not good at listening to logic. I just accept I'm wrong and pay my money.

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

Bungle73 wrote:

ravey1981 wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

I'd quite like you to quantify what a "high chance" is exactly? Shall we assume that it must be over 50%, or it would be a "low chance". So going from there what you are saying is that over half of the Chinese unbranded carbon bars ever made have failed unexpectedly. B0llocks.

I think you seem to be missing the point. The point it is that if you purchase some random Chinese component then you have no idea about the quality of what you are getting. They can and have snapped on people - the evidence of that is out there for all to see.

But then so is the evidence that buying genuine is no guarantee of them not.

w00dster · February 2018

I do remember a pro rider who's bars snapped without hitting a pot hole. Just can't find the clip, possibly a Katusha rider. Trying to use my Google Fu skills to find it......

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

w00dster wrote:

I do remember a pro rider who's bars snapped without hitting a pot hole. Just can't find the clip, possibly a Katusha rider. Trying to use my Google Fu skills to find it......

I think I know what you mean. I’ve tried looking. I think it was during Milan-San Remo

w00dster · February 2018

So the only difference I can see is that genuine products provided by branded resellers have quality controls in place, they will build to a set of tolerances. While this isn't a guarantee and failures will occur it's a bit of an assurance.
I personally would rather pay for that, accepting that things can go wrong, but the company has carried out some quality control to hopefully reduce any unexpected occurrences.

ravey1981 · February 2018

Bungle73 wrote:

ravey1981 wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

I'd quite like you to quantify what a "high chance" is exactly? Shall we assume that it must be over 50%, or it would be a "low chance". So going from there what you are saying is that over half of the Chinese unbranded carbon bars ever made have failed unexpectedly. B0llocks.

I think you seem to be missing the point. The point it is that if you purchase some random Chinese component then you have no idea about the quality of what you are getting. They can and have snapped on people - the evidence of that is out there for all to see.

No. You snubbed the use of anecdotal evidence but are happy to use just that yourself. Just because there have been some failures does not mean that there is a high chance of failure, however you are choosing to assume it does. Its exactly the same argument that occurs with the melting Chinese carbon wheels stories, yes some have warped (as have "branded" offerings) but it is also true that far more sets are in use with no problems whatsoever.

imposter2.0 · February 2018

An argument about Chinese carbon bars on a thread about stems.....

trivial_poursuivant · February 2018

Imposter wrote:

An argument about Chinese carbon bars on a thread about stems.....

I wonder if they are in some way connected.......

johngti · February 2018

What I got (on my winter bike (a giant defy 0)) for more money was a stem that massively reduces road buzz and the pain I get in my neck:

https://kitradar.com/products/redshift- ... joQAvD_BwE

It’s very, very good indeed. Thinking of getting another for my domane in the summer, just need to decide on 90mm like on the giant or to go for 100mm

Matthewfalle · February 2018

Bungle73 wrote:

ravey1981 wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

Trivial poursuivant wrote:

Bungle73 wrote:

As stated before, the Brand X stems sold by CRC have to be the best value stems going. So cheap that I've ended up with two: bought one to replace the short stem on the bike, and then bought another one when I decided that I wanted an even longer one.

w00dster wrote:

Without any justification what so ever I have a knagging voice telling me not to buy Chinese bars. I know they are likely to be as well made and could be made by the same people for all I know.
I can't justify it or explain it rationally. I know I'm probably wasting money and being a fool.

If you value your life the last thing you want to do is spend money on some no name Chinese carbon bar that you know nothing about. There is a high chance that it will snap unexpectedly on you (plenty of stories online about this), which is the last thing you want while bombing down a high speed descent.

Plenty of examples of named kit snapping. Most recently being a Trek Emonda snapped clean in half! So brand naming is no guarantee.

But it took some kind of impact first though, right? I'm talking about bars just snapping spontaniously, because they were poorly made.

If you buy from a reputable brand you know that it will have been manufactured to certain standards, and will comply with the relevant safety regulations. You will also have comeback if it fails and causes an injury. Buying an unknown bar from China and you have no idea what you're getting. If you really must buy something from China then you really need to do the research first, so you know if what you are getting is any good.

I’m not condoning them. I’d never use them, I’m just saying I’ve seen people with genuine parts fail and also know personally a rider who has been using chinese bars for 2 years no issue even with a crash which was enough to smash up his shifter but the bars are sound. A genuine brand may have a better chance of being ok but carbon by it’s very nature can fail regardless of its maker.

I'm afraid neither of those anecdotes mean a thing unless you can say a) why those "genuine parts" failed, and b) were the Chinese bars a random purchase from the internet (and even if it was that is evidence of nothing), or was the research I alluded to earlier carrier out.

Also, I'd like you to present some evidence of a carbon component from a recognised brand failing just like that. It's very unlikely that a properly made carbon component will just suddenly fail, unless it has already been compromised first.

I'd quite like you to quantify what a "high chance" is exactly? Shall we assume that it must be over 50%, or it would be a "low chance". So going from there what you are saying is that over half of the Chinese unbranded carbon bars ever made have failed unexpectedly. B0llocks.

I think you seem to be missing the point. The point it is that if you purchase some random Chinese component then you have no idea about the quality of what you are getting. They can and have snapped on people - the evidence of that is out there for all to see.

But remember Pro dudes carbon forks that snapped in the TDF a few years ago.

Ok, they were on Trek so probably topped themselves out of boredom but proves that even big name brands aren't adverse to a failure or two.

vinnymarsden · February 2018

I built up my best bike in summer last year.. bling top of the range Fizik 00 carbon bars, they HAD to be complimented by a ridiculously unnecessarily expensive stem, why, because I wanted to!
I agree 100% about technical differences being minimal, in fact my thoughts are when people ask what’s the difference between a £20 stem and a £220 stem,I ponder and they wait as though I have some really smart answer, however the standard reply is ... Well it’s 200 quid! But if you’re happy paying it, it beats posh cigarettes at £13 per20 don’t you think!!!

froze · February 2018

Don't spend a lot of money on a stem, in fact don't spend any money at all on a stem unless it's needed because the current stem has malfunctioned in some way. Instead save your money and apply it to where it will really matter like lighter wheels, or lighter tires, etc.

cougie · February 2018

Or new sunglasses.

vinnymarsden · February 2018

I bought some copy bars from the Bay to test them.
I didn’t expect them to be up to much, and they weren’t !!
They were good copies, looked like the real thing, which I already owned.. the copies were so so flexible , when I stood up on climbs the bars actually bent upwards!
I always stick to the genuine product and my test actually proved why!!

Stems - what do you get by paying more?

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