All the gear... (none of the gear)
rdt
Posts: 869
A bit of a thinking out loud post from me, and all and any input from others welcomed! WARNING: this is longer than Beowulf 
For the past dozen years I've been using an indoor training setup consisting of:
I do no/hardly any road riding now. I use the turbo for fun (yes!) and staying fit. But looks like I'll be going up the Ventoux later this year, so have increased incentive to raise the fitness, ie a goal.
In order to make things more interesting (more interactive) and more effective I'm quite interested in revamping my turbo set up, and have been looking around at the very different looking indoor training world that now exists compared to when I put my setup together last decade.
An obvious hurdle is that there seems to be almost no incremental path from here to somewhere better, with every component of mine (except cooling fans!) needing replacement. eg. I don't even have a Windows machine or iDevice on which to run things (I use a Chromebook and mid-range Android).
The good news is that I have a 'flexible' budget, and within reason could buy whatever I think is justified, if I think it's worth it. But wearing my accountant's hat I prefer to spend wisely, on quality stuff that lasts a while. Wearing the same hat, I think subscription services are fantastic - for the revenues of the providers! - but I doubt that I'll see enough value in something to willingly lock into spending £10-20 month for the rest of time. Still, I would use subs services in an on-and-off basis, mixing it up with non-subs-based stuff, either doing similar things to what I do now, or similar things but driven via a standalone app/program.
A, err, complication(!) here is that I've never used any of the current crop of trainer services eg. Zwift, Sufferfest, Fulgaz, TrainerRoad - nothing. Nor used any of the current crop of standalone apps that come with some of the smart trainers.
As such, I don't really know where I'm aiming to get to, so drawing up a plan to get there is tricky! That uncertainty spans both the bike/trainer as well as any apps...
An obvious question is whether to go: mule + direct drive smart trainer or indoor smart bike.
Being 8-speed, my current turbo mule is probably a dead end that would need replacing with a new mule having an 11-speed setup anyway. Since any new mule would be used solely on the trainer, then the economics and convenience of an indoor smart bike (eg. WB Atom) might make sense.
Before getting into cycling years ago I once owned a fancy stationary bike. I liked the zero maintenance, but not the idea I'd be hosed if anything ever went substantially wrong once out of warranty. Same applies to a smart bike, which may turn out to be short term great, long term money down the drain.
I've got the impression the Atom is a bit "Version 0" at the moment, so would want to see it improve. Whether it improves enough (eg. current design seems unnecessarily noisy, shifter/gear issues esp. lack of feedback) remains to be seen. Maybe the Tacx Neo Smart Bike will be an option, if they can get the price down, although its 'footprint' looks a bit ridiculous in comparison to the Atom's. This all suggests 'wait and see' is the best idea regarding smart bikes.
For a mule/smart trainer setup, the most interesting trainers for performance/value combo look to be (i) the Neo and (ii) the Elite Direto. Either look like very good options. I'd also need to buy/build an 11-speed mule to go with this, maybe with the help of my LBS. This is a lot more hassle (and barely any cheaper, if at all) than just buying a indoor smart bike, but might be better long term, eg. logistically easier to sell-on a 2nd hand smart trainer than a smart bike; mule bike would require some maintenance but all fixable and relatively cheaply, unlike an out-of-warranty smart bike which might turn out to be a massive pain in the @r5e if it ever had issues!
Then there's the gadgetry. With say an Atom, I could for a while just use the WB Hub on an existing Android device, so no more hardware costs. Not sure what if any Android-based apps either Tacx or Elite offer. But once I start wanting to run some of the subs-based training apps, then it seems I'd need an iDevice. For maximum flexibility (able to run the widest choice), then I'm looking at needing some grunt and an iPad Pro (£619 or £769). Quite a lot to drop on a device I'd literally use for nothing else. If I only wanted to use Zwift, then I could get an Apple TV 4k + 32" HD TV, the whole lot for around £500+, or less if a 2nd hand TV was bought. Being Zwift-only though, this Apple TV route is probably not an option. I suspect (guess!) that the novelty of Zwift would wane for me, and longer term I might be more interested in something like Sufferfest or Fulgaz (or both at different times).
The upshot of the above uncertainty is that at the moment, the easiest course of action seems for me to not drop several grand on a fancy new trainer setup! Waiting a while may bring some clarity on the indoor smart bike options (or not), although I doubt the rest of it is going to get much clearer.
So what to do next? Any ideas?
And is there anything else I could be doing now, based around my current setup, to give me some additional interactivity or variation in what I'm doing? I'd be happy to spend some money that moves me in the right direction (towards the full smart trainer/bike setup), but fairly reluctant to do so on something that's a 'dead-end', ie. on something I'd have no use for (and would need to get shut of) once I got to a full smart setup.
Any feedback on this lengthy load of waffle much appreciated
For the past dozen years I've been using an indoor training setup consisting of:
-
- 'Dumb' Kurt Kinetic Road Machine + the old (pre-InRide) Kinetic so-called 'power' meter that translates speed to a power reading (& no data transmission)
- 8-speed hybrid bike, position tweaked to exactly mimic the road bike's, sat permanently on the turbo
- A paper-based intervals 'programme' drawn up by me, based on one of Pete Read's old books + additional stuff I've learnt.
- No fancy tech involved currently: no data capture, no (screen-based) guided interval sessions, no ANT+/Bluetooth Smart HRM; Old school through and through!
I do no/hardly any road riding now. I use the turbo for fun (yes!) and staying fit. But looks like I'll be going up the Ventoux later this year, so have increased incentive to raise the fitness, ie a goal.
In order to make things more interesting (more interactive) and more effective I'm quite interested in revamping my turbo set up, and have been looking around at the very different looking indoor training world that now exists compared to when I put my setup together last decade.
An obvious hurdle is that there seems to be almost no incremental path from here to somewhere better, with every component of mine (except cooling fans!) needing replacement. eg. I don't even have a Windows machine or iDevice on which to run things (I use a Chromebook and mid-range Android).
The good news is that I have a 'flexible' budget, and within reason could buy whatever I think is justified, if I think it's worth it. But wearing my accountant's hat I prefer to spend wisely, on quality stuff that lasts a while. Wearing the same hat, I think subscription services are fantastic - for the revenues of the providers! - but I doubt that I'll see enough value in something to willingly lock into spending £10-20 month for the rest of time. Still, I would use subs services in an on-and-off basis, mixing it up with non-subs-based stuff, either doing similar things to what I do now, or similar things but driven via a standalone app/program.
A, err, complication(!) here is that I've never used any of the current crop of trainer services eg. Zwift, Sufferfest, Fulgaz, TrainerRoad - nothing. Nor used any of the current crop of standalone apps that come with some of the smart trainers.
As such, I don't really know where I'm aiming to get to, so drawing up a plan to get there is tricky! That uncertainty spans both the bike/trainer as well as any apps...
An obvious question is whether to go: mule + direct drive smart trainer or indoor smart bike.
Being 8-speed, my current turbo mule is probably a dead end that would need replacing with a new mule having an 11-speed setup anyway. Since any new mule would be used solely on the trainer, then the economics and convenience of an indoor smart bike (eg. WB Atom) might make sense.
Before getting into cycling years ago I once owned a fancy stationary bike. I liked the zero maintenance, but not the idea I'd be hosed if anything ever went substantially wrong once out of warranty. Same applies to a smart bike, which may turn out to be short term great, long term money down the drain.
I've got the impression the Atom is a bit "Version 0" at the moment, so would want to see it improve. Whether it improves enough (eg. current design seems unnecessarily noisy, shifter/gear issues esp. lack of feedback) remains to be seen. Maybe the Tacx Neo Smart Bike will be an option, if they can get the price down, although its 'footprint' looks a bit ridiculous in comparison to the Atom's. This all suggests 'wait and see' is the best idea regarding smart bikes.
For a mule/smart trainer setup, the most interesting trainers for performance/value combo look to be (i) the Neo and (ii) the Elite Direto. Either look like very good options. I'd also need to buy/build an 11-speed mule to go with this, maybe with the help of my LBS. This is a lot more hassle (and barely any cheaper, if at all) than just buying a indoor smart bike, but might be better long term, eg. logistically easier to sell-on a 2nd hand smart trainer than a smart bike; mule bike would require some maintenance but all fixable and relatively cheaply, unlike an out-of-warranty smart bike which might turn out to be a massive pain in the @r5e if it ever had issues!
Then there's the gadgetry. With say an Atom, I could for a while just use the WB Hub on an existing Android device, so no more hardware costs. Not sure what if any Android-based apps either Tacx or Elite offer. But once I start wanting to run some of the subs-based training apps, then it seems I'd need an iDevice. For maximum flexibility (able to run the widest choice), then I'm looking at needing some grunt and an iPad Pro (£619 or £769). Quite a lot to drop on a device I'd literally use for nothing else. If I only wanted to use Zwift, then I could get an Apple TV 4k + 32" HD TV, the whole lot for around £500+, or less if a 2nd hand TV was bought. Being Zwift-only though, this Apple TV route is probably not an option. I suspect (guess!) that the novelty of Zwift would wane for me, and longer term I might be more interested in something like Sufferfest or Fulgaz (or both at different times).
The upshot of the above uncertainty is that at the moment, the easiest course of action seems for me to not drop several grand on a fancy new trainer setup! Waiting a while may bring some clarity on the indoor smart bike options (or not), although I doubt the rest of it is going to get much clearer.
So what to do next? Any ideas?
And is there anything else I could be doing now, based around my current setup, to give me some additional interactivity or variation in what I'm doing? I'd be happy to spend some money that moves me in the right direction (towards the full smart trainer/bike setup), but fairly reluctant to do so on something that's a 'dead-end', ie. on something I'd have no use for (and would need to get shut of) once I got to a full smart setup.
Any feedback on this lengthy load of waffle much appreciated
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Comments
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There is no reason why you couldn't use your current bike a trainer with the latest and greatest apps. All you would need to get is a bluetooth speed and cadence sensor. If you then got a current version Apple TV you would be able to run zwift on that. If you want something with a screen then go for an Ipad instead (BTW this doesn't need to be the Ipad pro just the standard one it would run no better on either). This would also open up Sufferfest and Trainerroad to you.
The good thing about going down this route is if you find that you are getting real value from this set up then you could consider getting a smart trainer.0 -
There are a few ways to sort this.
- New trainer and New 11spd bike
- New trainer (Direto) and Change the groupset on old bike to 2nd hand 105, or even Tiagra 46/4700
- New trainer (Direto) and current 8speed
- Old Trainer, New/Upgraded bike, Speed Sensor
- Old Trainer, New/Upgrade Bike and Power meter
- Old Trainer, Old Bike and speed sensor
- Old trainer, Old Bike and Power meter.
It all depends what you want from the setup. If you are doing just pure training, then adding a power meter to the current setup would suffice.
If you want "better" training, then a new smart turbo with ERG and your old bike would be an upgrade.
I don't see why you need 11speed on the trainer. I run 11spd on my summer bike and 10spd on my winter. The ratios are identical except the 10spd missing the 11t.
I would personally sway towards a new trainer and upgrading the groupset on the indoor bike (To match the ratios/gearing on the outdoor bike). It's set up to mimic the outdoor bike, so why change. After all it's a mule/turbo bike. It doesn't need to be fancy or anything.0 -
Excellent replies - thanks guysstevie63 wrote:There is no reason why you couldn't use your current bike a trainer with the latest and greatest apps. All you would need to get is a bluetooth speed and cadence sensor. If you then got a current version Apple TV you would be able to run zwift on that. If you want something with a screen then go for an Ipad instead (BTW this doesn't need to be the Ipad pro just the standard one it would run no better on either). This would also open up Sufferfest and Trainerroad to you.
The good thing about going down this route is if you find that you are getting real value from this set up then you could consider getting a smart trainer.
OK. I see a lot of sense in this.
I'd assumed that the experience (immersivity) of a non-smart trainer with these apps would be a bit cack (eg. getting to a 'hill' and changing up and speeding up in order to simulate the workload of a real hill), but maybe it's not such a big deal in practice? Also, the idea of app control of resistance (ergo mode) for an intervals session is very appealing to me. I'd be very interested to hear what the 'experience' is like with these apps if using a non-smart turbo and 'virtual power' :?:
But, I definitely get the idea that a step forward that lets me try the apps out without going 'all-in' is very wise...
In order to give me a choice of training apps, I'd probably need to go down the iPad route instead of Zwift-only Apple TV. I zeroed in on an iPad Pro to ensure I'd be buying something with maximum grunt so better able to cope with ever growing processing demands from future releases of the apps. 'Insurance' so that I get a good few years usage without needing to trade-in/up the iPad for a good while.
Is it worth paying up for a 12" screen vs 10" (eg. immersivity/usability)? What are people mounting these things on?
And what bluetooth speed and cadence sensors should I be looking at? Cheers.
==Dannbodge wrote:If you want "better" training, then a new smart turbo with ERG and your old bike would be an upgrade.
I don't see why you need 11speed on the trainer. I run 11spd on my summer bike and 10spd on my winter. The ratios are identical except the 10spd missing the 11t.
I would personally sway towards a new trainer and upgrading the groupset on the indoor bike (To match the ratios/gearing on the outdoor bike). It's set up to mimic the outdoor bike, so why change. After all it's a mule/turbo bike. It doesn't need to be fancy or anything.
I think I'm after (i) "better" training and (ii) more enjoyable, interesting, motivating.
The 11-speed idea was to future proof me as much as possible (bit of a theme!), so I could run the mule for a decade or more without availability of parts, or cassette compatibility with a future direct drive trainer, ever becoming an issue.
But you're right, not essential. I'd not really considered upgrading the groupset on the current bike with it being flat-bar - (i) I didn't know what shifters/groupsets were available (major lack of knowledge on my behalf) and (ii) although I've got it to mimic the road bike position, in truth the front-end is a bit iffy in this regard and drop bars would be better. But I suppose I could change to those too. Spending big money to upgrade this bike had elements of turd-polishing about it, but maybe I'm being hasty and should rethink?!
==
This is all really useful for clarify things.
(1) Depending on feedback or what I can learn about using dumb trainers & virtual power with some of the apps, Step 1 may be to get the BT speed/cadence sensors and an iPad so I can check out the training apps for myself, see if they hook me, and whether I want to spend a load more and go balls deep into smart training. Worst case, after a year I could flog an iPad and get some decent money back...
(2) But if I really like it, Step 2 would be the trainer/bike upgrade: see if the smart bikes have raised their game enough to warrant purchase. A smart bike of has some real 'nice have' appeal: lower footprint, clean, easy adjustability allowing partner occasional usage, low hassle of setup/ownership (unless/until it goes t!ts up out of warranty and then becomes maximum hassle!). Or take the 'safer' option of buying a high-end smart trainer (eg. Neo or Direto) and figuring out whether to upgrade my mule or buy/build another.
Many thanks & any more feedback welcome! Cheers 0 -
Personally, I'd go with the Direto and upgrade your current bike to run 10 or 11 speed. The Direto has ANT+ and BTE connectivity so will work with a PC (with an an ANT+ key) or iPad. It works fine with TrainerRoad, Sufferfest, Zwift and just about anything else. It has a built in power meter that Elite estimate to be within 2.5% accuracy, but testers rate at near 1%. It also has a cadence meter and the dreaded ERG mode.I ride a bike. Doesn't make me green or a tree hugger. I drive a car too.0
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Since posting last week...
1. I've decided I don't want to buy an iPad, definitely not for the time being, hopefully never if I can avoid it.
2. And decided not to buy a smart trainer/bike YET, and to wait and see until at least Autumn '18 to see how things pan out.
3. And to follow the gist of stevie63's advice above of using my current bike/trainer setup in conjunction with training apps.
So... I've had a good look at the Kinetic Fit app, doing some of its interval sessions and the FTP test, reading the numbers off my KK 'power' meter (because my current setup doesn't transmit anything to the app...). I liked using this a lot.
That was enough to make me realise that the structured programmes within TrainerRoad are probably the ideal thing for me to focus on for the next 6 months, targeting my late summer Ventoux trip and aiming to raise FTP by >15% (to a level I was at 7 years ago).
I'd be using TrainerRoad on my existing Android phone or tablet. As far as I'm aware, neither have Ant+ capability, so I need Bluetooth sensors for my bike and a Bluetooth HRM strap.
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While there's some cheaper unbranded Amazon options, the no-brainer stuff to buy seems to be the following Wahoo kit:
- Wahoo RPM Speed and Cadence sensor bundle £55 [ https://uk.wahoofitness.com/devices/bik ... WFRPMC.htm ] NB The Wahoo Blue SC combined speed/cadence sensor is £5 cheaper but seems older tech and having the separate RPM sensors may be handy for me in the future on an outdoor bike...
- Wahoo Tickr HRM £40 [ https://uk.wahoofitness.com/devices/hea ... rate-strap ]
Sanity Check before I order: is that all I need to buy, and with those Wahoo bits + my existing Android tablet/phone + KK Road Machine, is that going to give me a valid, working Android-based TrainerRoad setup? :?:
Cheers!0 -
I've decided to be a cheapskate and buy these unbranded bits from Amazon:
BTLE combined sped/cadence sensor, £20: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01 ... 75CT&psc=1
BT/Ant+ HRM strap, £24: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01 ... M2D80&th=1
See how I get on with TrainerRoad, very likely to subscribe if it works for me.
Also intend to give Rouvy a whirl as this looks interesting and (crucially!) has an Android app.0 -
What you're proposing will work, mostly. TrainerRoad has a virtual power curve for Kurt trainers programmed in, so it should be reasonable to work with. As it goes, all things being equal, I'd much sooner hunt for a used Powertap wheel than go the speed/cadence route. You can get lucky and lift one for 200 or so. That'll give you accurate BT and Ant+ power transmission, it'll be cross-compatible with your "outdoor" bike, and they're pretty durable. HR sensor is a nice thing to have, but maybe not essential right away.
Regarding electronics, I currently use an Android phone (my old Samsung Galaxy, has Ant+) to run TrainerRoad, and a cheapie tablet to play music/watch videos. The only compromise I've noticed is that running TrainerRoad on lower end hardware can make the countdown timers a little quirky and irregular. The overall time is correct, but some "seconds" on the countdown take 3 or 4 seconds to tick by and then the display catches up. It's nothing major, but it can be a bit distracting, especially if you're being for the end of a VO2 Max interval.
I'm a big fan of TrainerRoad. It's utilitarian relative to Zwift and it's lacking a bit of polish here and there (TR, please get someone to proof-read the instructions, for the love of all that's good and holy), but it's extremely effective. It's a training tool, not a videogame.0 -
Got myself the el cheapo BT speed/cadence sensor from Amazon plus a Wahoo Tickr, signed up to TrainerRoad, got it all working, begun a SweetSpot Base plan and done the Ramp Test X.
Luvverly jubberly.
Thanks for the comment MisterMuncher. This setup is just a low-cost interim one for me - I'll eventually get either a smart trainer or preferably a smart indoor bike. I'm not really interested in measuring power outdoors as I do very few rides and any I do are purely for fun not training.
I reckon my current trainer setup + TrainerRoad should do me until the Autumn when I'll see what smart indoor bikes are available and take it from there, stick or twist. WIth a new lease of life for my old setup I'm a very happy punter for now, so ta v much to everyone for the feedback. 0
