Hesitant shifting ... what else to try?

bobones
bobones Posts: 1,215
edited January 2018 in Workshop
I can't get the indexing quite right on my winter bike's RD 5700 (external routing), and it's really starting to annoy me.

So far, I've checked hanger alignment numerous times, changed jockey wheels, replaced cables (inners and outers a couple of times, used decent metal ferrules), replaced BB cable guide, stripped and cleaned RD pivots. I've even swapped the RD to another known good RD 5700, but the problem exists with that one too. Chain is new SRAM 10 speed, but I've also checked with another wheel and chain.

Basically, it's very sensitive to small changes in tension at the barrel adjuster, and it either hesitates going up the cog at a couple of positions or if hangs dropping down the cog if I increase the tension a little, i.e. similar behaviour to misaligned hanger or friction in cable. Shifting action is nice and light, but just not as precise as it used to be.

Could this be a problem with the shifter itself as it's the only thing I haven't changed. I've sprayed the shifter with GT85 and rechecked the hanger alignment and tightness several times, but the problem doesn't go away. I've ran out of ideas and might just upgrade the derailleurs and shifters to 5800 if I can't get this to work correctly. Can anyone help?

Comments

  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    That's a comprehensive list of checks. Two other possibilities- is the rear derailleur cable clamped on the correct side of the clamp bolt?. Also check the shifter cable guide( http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/shimano-105-st5700-shift-lever-cable-guide-right-hand-6th-1400/)for wear especially if you've had frayed cables in the past.
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    Thanks, that's a great shout about the cable guide as I have recently had a frayed/snapped cable in the shifter, and I don't think that was the first time. Is it easy enough to fit? I also have 5700 on another bike so I may try the shifter from that bike as a final test.
  • crankycrank
    crankycrank Posts: 1,830
    Is the chain the correct length and is your B-tension screw on the mech adjusted properly? Also are you sure the cassette cogs aren't worn as that can cause the chain to hang up on the teeth sometimes when shifting.
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    Adjusting B tension seems to make no difference to the problem, which exists with a different cassette and chain and even different rear derailleur. I've basically ruled out everything bar the shifter itself so I've bought the cable guide suggested by jermas and will try to fit it tonight.
  • -Dash
    -Dash Posts: 179
    I'm interested to hear if it fixes it. My shifting hasn't been perfect for a little while and I've had 4/5 cables snap in the RD shifter. I didn't consider that it could have damaged the cable guide. 6800 shifter but presumably same part is available.
  • All 10sp road systems are that sensitive to cable quality and lubrication state. You are not the only one that suffers, athe the ones that say they don't, they havent tried the new 11sp shifting from shimano. When the 10sp was introduced , Shimano made a huge mistake by bringing the same cable pull ratio from the 8 and 9sp to the 10. one click on 10sp ROAD systems shift so litle cable from gear to gear that some times it seems that the cable just bulges. I had a 5700 series on my cyclocross and I was constantly fighting with the barrel adjuster and the quality of the inner and outer cables. there is no cure except changing the outer and inner shift cable with a better one, especially the inner cable. buy some coated cable from shimano and lubricate the outer cable inner tube with some ptfe. the solution came from shimano with the new shift ratio introduced with the 11sp systems and tiagra4700 10sp. shifting is WAY different as the shifters oull almost DOUBLE the cable for the same cog to cog transfer!
  • 6wheels
    6wheels Posts: 411
    If you're still in the same situation, consider changing the top(floating) jockey wheel to non-floating. I had the same problem with a 5700 and using a pair of cheap BBB jockey wheels removed the hesitation.
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    Thanks for all the advice. I've eventually gotten to the bottom of this.

    It seems like an accumulation of factors, but the main culprit appears to be the new SRAM PC 1030 chain I had fitted a couple of weeks ago, as it just doesn't mesh well with Shimano cassettes. I thought I had ruled this properly before, but I think I checked with an older chain and a different wheel/cassette at the same time and didn't really notice a massive improvement in shifting.

    I had high hopes when I fitted the shifter cable guide as I could see the old one was scored and worn, but the shifting only marginally improved. Scratching my head, I then tried a totally different 5700 shifter and RD from my turbo bike - still the same! I am now thinking it's got to be the hanger even though I checked this 3 or 4 times, but I tried the 6701 chain from my turbo bike and there was no hesitation and the shifting was almost perfect. I then put back the original shifter and RD: again shifting pretty much spot on. The 6701 chain from my turbo bike was beyond 0.75 wear indicator so I bought a new 6701 chain and sure enough, the shifting was nigh on perfect.

    Just to seal the deal I fitted a brand new 5700 cassette yesterday and once again sure shifting with the new 6701 chain is absolutely perfect, but still garbage with the new cassette and SRAM chain. I could probably squeezed a bit more life out of the old cassette, but I am happy my shifting is back to where it should be.

    Lesson learned - avoid cheap SRAM chains!
  • bobones wrote:
    Thanks for all the advice. I've eventually gotten to the bottom of this.

    It seems like an accumulation of factors, but the main culprit appears to be the new SRAM PC 1030 chain I had fitted a couple of weeks ago, as it just doesn't mesh well with Shimano cassettes. I thought I had ruled this properly before, but I think I checked with an older chain and a different wheel/cassette at the same time and didn't really notice a massive improvement in shifting.

    I had high hopes when I fitted the shifter cable guide as I could see the old one was scored and worn, but the shifting only marginally improved. Scratching my head, I then tried a totally different 5700 shifter and RD from my turbo bike - still the same! I am now thinking it's got to be the hanger even though I checked this 3 or 4 times, but I tried the 6701 chain from my turbo bike and there was no hesitation and the shifting was almost perfect. I then put back the original shifter and RD: again shifting pretty much spot on. The 6701 chain from my turbo bike was beyond 0.75 wear indicator so I bought a new 6701 chain and sure enough, the shifting was nigh on perfect.

    Just to seal the deal I fitted a brand new 5700 cassette yesterday and once again sure shifting with the new 6701 chain is absolutely perfect, but still garbage with the new cassette and SRAM chain. I could probably squeezed a bit more life out of the old cassette, but I am happy my shifting is back to where it should be.

    Lesson learned - avoid cheap SRAM chains!


    Glad your back to working normal again. I’ve used Sram chains in the past and they have been generally ok on Ultegra 10sp groupset although they do tend to have a large amount of lateral movement in them and I found they vibrate in high gears 11/12 teeth . Which can be quite off-putting. I’ll stick with KMC from now on (also used Connex Wippermann 10 & 11sp) which h seem to do the same. Avoid!!

    As for the hanger, I replaced one a few weeks back. The old one when laid next to the new one looked identical but was ever so slightly twisted. Not bent in or outwards so when looking down the line of the gears it looked straight but twisted front to rear but so tiny that until I replaced it you wouldn’t even believe the difference it made. 10sp setup it was unnoticeable but on 11 it was problematic to the point of frustration
  • bobones
    bobones Posts: 1,215
    Glad your back to working normal again. I’ve used Sram chains in the past and they have been generally ok on Ultegra 10sp groupset although they do tend to have a large amount of lateral movement in them and I found they vibrate in high gears 11/12 teeth . Which can be quite off-putting. I’ll stick with KMC from now on (also used Connex Wippermann 10 & 11sp) which h seem to do the same. Avoid!!

    As for the hanger, I replaced one a few weeks back. The old one when laid next to the new one looked identical but was ever so slightly twisted. Not bent in or outwards so when looking down the line of the gears it looked straight but twisted front to rear but so tiny that until I replaced it you wouldn’t even believe the difference it made. 10sp setup it was unnoticeable but on 11 it was problematic to the point of frustration
    I have SRAM eTAP on my summer bike and have been using a SRAM Red chain on that without any bother, but this was my first shot at a cheap 10 speed SRAM chain, and it will be my last. I usually use KMC or Shimano chains so I will stick to them. The 6701 chain seems to have shaped and ramped chain links which help move the chain to the next cog whereas the flat, featureless edges of the PC1030 offer no assistance.

    I bought a hanger alignment tool when I was installing eTAP so I am pretty confident that my hangers are in good alignment. When I was thinking back on all the things that could have adversely affected the shifting, hanger alignment was one of them as I had recently crashed on ice and my bike landed on the RHS. I also had ridden through a few floods , my rear cable had frayed and snapped in the shifter, and I had fitted this new chain. Although the chain has been proven to be main culprit, I think a number of factors had accumulated to produce bad shifting so it wasn't a total waste of time replacing cables and guides, cleaning pivots and changing jockey wheels.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,032
    tsarouxaz wrote:
    All 10sp road systems are that sensitive to cable quality and lubrication state.

    wasn't it the case that Tiagra 10 sp has the same pull as DA 11 sp and consequently changes better than Ultegra.

    I never got my Ultegra 10sp to change perfectly.
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