Rear wheel not centered (after riding)

savvasstavridis

Hi there, I have read a lot online about the problem of not centered wheels, but in my case, it happens only after riding for a while. When I mount the wheel everything is perfectly centered.
My bike is a Scott CR1 Team 2013 and my wheels are Kyrium Elites S.
I had the same problem with the Shimano RS-10 set.
At first I thought that the quick release was not tight enough, but this is definitely not the problem.

Any ideas?
Thanks!

Matthewfalle

Is it centered between the chainstays but not the brake? Is your brake loose?

Any sideways movement on the wheel when you push/pull it?

Have you tried another wheel?

Ben6899

A common, known problem with the CR1 rear dropouts. There is a great deal of info in the CR1 thread, in Commuting Chat.

viewtopic.php?f=40012&t=12924826&hilit=cr1

keef66

Well if it's fine when you mount it but not after riding, something's amiss. The fact you had the same issue with the RS10s suggests it's not the wheel.

So either there's movement in the frame, which would imply it's broken, or the axle is moving in the dropouts, which means the QR skewer isn't clamping it immovably.

What QR levers are you using?

I have a CR1-SL with RS10s using the supplied Shimano QRs and they've been in and out dozens of times and never moved a millimeter. The minimal clearance on the rear means I'm pretty pathological about getting the wheel dead centre, and with a lot of tension on the QR.

keef66

Ben6899 wrote:

A common, known problem with the CR1 rear dropouts. There is a great deal of info in the CR1 thread, in Commuting Chat.

viewtopic.php?f=40012&t=12924826&hilit=cr1

Interestingly I was reading an article by Sheldon Brown about tensioning chains on singlespeed / fixed gear bikes only yesterday. On one of his bikes he'd shortened the rear axle so it no longer sat in the dropouts, but the QR skewer did thereby giving him a bit of extra adjustment. He claimed that as long as the QR was done up sufficiently tightly the wheel stayed where it was.

savvasstavridis

Thanks for the link Ben!

Matthew, when I install the wheel everything is aligned well (chainstays, brakes). There are no movements when I push/pull my wheel. The same happened with a Shimano wheelset.

Keef66, I'm afraid it is something with the dropouts... I am using the QR levers that came with the Mavic Ksyrium Elite S wheelset. At the moment i don't have any others to try.

Do you think there is something I can check at my dropouts?

keef66

With the bike upside down and with the chain removed, where does the wheel sit if you just let the axle fall into the dropouts both sides? Is it central to the seat tube and between seatstays and chainstays?

I'd try to get hold of a Shimano QR, centre the wheel and do it up tightly.

arthur_scrimshaw

I have this issue with a Synapse Disk- carbon frame with Alu dropouts and Mavic Asksium wheels, at the start of a ride the wheel is centered and at the end it's skewed over - the dropout on the drive side is too big and allows the axle to move (presumably under power or braking) It's less than a mm, but no matter how tight I do up the QR it still wont hold. I've thought about putting a bit of body filler in the drop out to take out the slack.

savvasstavridis

keef66 wrote:

With the bike upside down and with the chain removed, where does the wheel sit if you just let the axle fall into the dropouts both sides? Is it central to the seat tube and between seatstays and chainstays?

I'd try to get hold of a Shimano QR, centre the wheel and do it up tightly.

Ok, I'll have to try that and come back with an answer. For the time being, I remember that when installing a wheel, if I place it correctly in the slot of the dropouts, everything is good. When riding it for a while, it shifts a bit from the DS dropout, so the wheel comes closer to the NDS chainstay.

In the meanwhile I will try to borrow any other QR for a test.

Thanks!

savvasstavridis

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

I have this issue with a Synapse Disk- carbon frame with Alu dropouts and Mavic Asksium wheels, at the start of a ride the wheel is centered and at the end it's skewed over - the dropout on the drive side is too big and allows the axle to move (presumably under power or braking) It's less than a mm, but no matter how tight I do up the QR it still wont hold. I've thought about putting a bit of body filler in the drop out to take out the slack.

Arthur, that sounds exaclty like my case. I thought about the filler too, but I don't feel to comfortable to do such a change, in case something else is affected. After all these answers I think I will inspect closely the QR at the DS. Maybe it is not contacting the dropout surface as it should.

keef66

savvasstavridis wrote:

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

I have this issue with a Synapse Disk- carbon frame with Alu dropouts and Mavic Asksium wheels, at the start of a ride the wheel is centered and at the end it's skewed over - the dropout on the drive side is too big and allows the axle to move (presumably under power or braking) It's less than a mm, but no matter how tight I do up the QR it still wont hold. I've thought about putting a bit of body filler in the drop out to take out the slack.

Arthur, that sounds exaclty like my case. I thought about the filler too, but I don't feel to comfortable to do such a change, in case something else is affected. After all these answers I think I will inspect closely the QR at the DS. Maybe it is not contacting the dropout surface as it should.

Thing is, only a mm at the dropout is quite a lot at the rim. People have made their dropouts a tighter fit with shims or epoxy, but you need to be clear where the problem lies before you try any of that.
If yours sits squarely in the dropouts but then skews when riding, work out which way the axle is moving and on which side. You might have to apply a tiny dot of paint to the point where the QR meets the dropout on each side, and see how they've moved relative to each other if / when the wheel goes wonky again.

milemuncher1

I had a ( Mavic ) rear wheel behave like that a few years ago. It turned out to be a problem with the freehub.

bobones

Same happens on my CR1. The wheel does seem to sit centred at first, but fat 25mm tyres will eventually start rubbing the left stay as the wheel skews. I just use narrower tyres now, but I may attempt a more permanent fix sometime.

keef66

bobones wrote:

Same happens on my CR1. The wheel does seem to sit centred at first, but fat 25mm tyres will eventually start rubbing the left stay as the wheel skews. I just use narrower tyres now, but I may attempt a more permanent fix sometime.

Did you ever work out which side is moving and why? The drive side being pulled forwards seems more likely to me.

From memory the carbon dropouts on my CR1 are pretty much vertical so logically that kind of behaviour suggests the dropout is quite a bit wider than the axle, so a suitable shim to make it a snug, straight fit would likely work?

bobones

keef66 wrote:

Did you ever work out which side is moving and why? The drive side being pulled forwards seems more likely to me.

From memory the carbon dropouts on my CR1 are pretty much vertical so logically that kind of behaviour suggests the dropout is quite a bit wider than the axle, so a suitable shim to make it a snug, straight fit would likely work?

I thought at first the dropouts weren't aligned correctly and padding the back of the non-drive dropout would fix it, but it definitely seems like the drive side pulling forwards as wheel is square at brake and stays when initially fitted. I'd need to take a closer look to see what shape of shim would prevent this. There's definitely just enough clearance to run big 25mm tyres like GP4000s or Michelin Pro 4 if the wheel stays straight in the dropout.

chrisw12

Same problem for me on same bike, I gave up in the end and have relegated the bike to the spare ‘bin’. Basically with 25mm tyres it would either move and then rub or I’d have to spend ages aligning it properly then be paranoid about it all ride.

My master plan if I do have to use the bike frame again is to use 23mm tyres and not use quick release skewers.

savvasstavridis

keef66 wrote:

bobones wrote:

Same happens on my CR1. The wheel does seem to sit centred at first, but fat 25mm tyres will eventually start rubbing the left stay as the wheel skews. I just use narrower tyres now, but I may attempt a more permanent fix sometime.

Did you ever work out which side is moving and why? The drive side being pulled forwards seems more likely to me.

From memory the carbon dropouts on my CR1 are pretty much vertical so logically that kind of behaviour suggests the dropout is quite a bit wider than the axle, so a suitable shim to make it a snug, straight fit would likely work?

You're right keef. The drive side slips forward. But still I didn't have time to inspect it thoroughly. I will come back with some photos soon. Must try an alternative quick release also!

I don't remember how vertical are my dropouts, I'll check if it has space to move there, makes sense. Thanks!

savvasstavridis

bobones wrote:

keef66 wrote:

Did you ever work out which side is moving and why? The drive side being pulled forwards seems more likely to me.

From memory the carbon dropouts on my CR1 are pretty much vertical so logically that kind of behaviour suggests the dropout is quite a bit wider than the axle, so a suitable shim to make it a snug, straight fit would likely work?

I thought at first the dropouts weren't aligned correctly and padding the back of the non-drive dropout would fix it, but it definitely seems like the drive side pulling forwards as wheel is square at brake and stays when initially fitted. I'd need to take a closer look to see what shape of shim would prevent this. There's definitely just enough clearance to run big 25mm tyres like GP4000s or Michelin Pro 4 if the wheel stays straight in the dropout.

I want to go to 25s, but they will definitely touch the chainstay if I don't fix this. With the 23s I am (almost) ok, they don;t touch but still they are close. I hope a new QR that has a different surface at the touching point with the dropout will make a difference.

savvasstavridis

chrisw12 wrote:

Same problem for me on same bike, I gave up in the end and have relegated the bike to the spare ‘bin’. Basically with 25mm tyres it would either move and then rub or I’d have to spend ages aligning it properly then be paranoid about it all ride.

My master plan if I do have to use the bike frame again is to use 23mm tyres and not use quick release skewers.

Thanks for the answer Chris,
It's a pity to leave the frame because of that. If I find something, I'll share it with you.

keef66

Even though the wheel stays centred, I run a 23mm tyre on the rear of mine because the 25 was picking up road censored and scraping the chainstays both sides equally.

savvasstavridis

keef66 wrote:

Even though the wheel stays centred, I run a 23mm tyre on the rear of mine because the 25 was picking up road censored and scraping the chainstays both sides equally.

I am quite curious and I want to try a 25mm set, I dont really mind the scratches. I want to see if it is really more comfortable, it will be essential to endurance rides.

savvasstavridis

So I checked it a bit more thoroughly and found out that the dropout slot is a bit bigger than the diameter of the part of the wheel that fits there, so this small gap

https://imgur.com/iEJgnQm

at the NDS allows the axle to move a bit backwards.
If I force it to go all the way, the margin at the NDS chainstay is too small

https://imgur.com/aUj7O19

If I lock the QR (original skewer from Mavic Ksyrium Elite) carefully it seems that it can be (almost) perfectly aligned

https://imgur.com/6qU7lwK

As I said at the first post this will not last after the first ride. So I changed the QR skewer and it seems that it brings the wheel at the perfect spot

https://imgur.com/1LPiyuX

Yesterday I tried it for a while and stayed in place. Today I will do a longer ride, so I will have the final answer if the original skewer is to blame

savvasstavridis

SOLVED!!!

The new quick release skewer I tried kept the wheel in the same position after a 120 km ride on good, bad tarmac, and a few hundrends of meters of cobblestone.

bobones

Nice. I had a closer look at my CR1 and a small smear of epoxy glue on the front inside of the drive side dropout was enough to stop the wheel slipping forward when the skewers were loosely done up. I didn't manage to fix it permanently though as the hardened glue popped off the first time I removed the wheel! I might have another go at this nearer spring when I will be back on out the road on this bike.