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Could YOU Knowingly.....

mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
edited January 2018 in The cake stop
....work for someone who killed someone whilst drink driving?

I was offered a job interview this week where I know the MD spent some of his time at Her Majesties pleasure for said offence.
I have turned it down as this goes against my ethics and could damage my integrity within my industry.

What about you?
Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
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  • ProssPross Posts: 31,634
    It depends on too many factors to make a simplistic judgement. How long ago? Has he shown genuine remorse? Have the victims family expressed forgiveness? Has he come out of the experience a better person?

    I'd be amazed if working for him would affect your own reputation.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,110
    Has he resumed driving? Does he still drink?
    The most pertinent questions.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 25,289 Lives Here
    As Pross and Blakey said it would depend very much on the individual and the circumstances.
    If if happened when he was only a fraction over the limit the morning after a few too many and he was full of remorse and had since given up drinking and/or driving I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
    If on the other hand he was a loud mouthed [email protected] that thought he’d done nothing wrong and continued to act the same way I wouldn’t be able to work for him.
    There is of course a huge amount of ground between the two extremes. If the business you are in is that close and everyone knows the back story so it could reflect on you it might be worth considering. There are people in my industry with reputations so bad that they affect those around them. I wouldn’t work for them.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,795
    Yes I could
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    This has happened in my family

    My uncle, who has been dead a good few years now, killed a man while pissed out of his skull in 1969

    He was utterly remorseful for the rest of his days, he was well known at our local Working Man's Club for policing people who had been drinking and might be considering driving

    He was also an employer, he owned the funeral directors in my local town, and he always made a point of telling prospective employees of his past and his attempts to atone for it.

    Don't know if he's a bad or good person in other peoples eyes, I thought he was somewhere in the middle like the majority of us!!
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    If you had a young family, been out of work for a few months\years I suspect the answer might be different
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
    If you had a young family, been out of work for a few months\years I suspect the answer might be different

    Quite.
    It's all very well for some to state, when was it?, are they remorseful ? etc etc. But in my opinion DiC has been a heinous offence for decades. Those that get behind the wheel of a car either straight after or the next morning after having a skinful risk theirs and others lives, and do so knowingly. Therefore they should suffer the full weight of the law if caught. No excuse.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • Yes I would.
    Ecrasez l’infame
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Pross wrote:
    It depends on too many factors to make a simplistic judgement. How long ago? Has he shown genuine remorse? Have the victims family expressed forgiveness? Has he come out of the experience a better person?

    I'd be amazed if working for him would affect your own reputation.

    1. How does the experience of killing someone through drink driving actually make you a better person? Surely the better person wouldn't have got behind the wheel in the first instance.

    2. Some of my clients and peers within the industry know of this persons history.
    3. I believe he played on the fact that he was MD of a company in order to get his sentence reduced or get early release ! Clearly those with more responsibility ( I laugh at this) are viewed as above the law and treated differently.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • I think you know that he means a better person than he WAS .

    If no one worked for him because of this history then what would be the point of the penal system and rehabilitation in general.?
    Trek,,,, too cool for school ,, apparently
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 4,182
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    It depends on too many factors to make a simplistic judgement. How long ago? Has he shown genuine remorse? Have the victims family expressed forgiveness? Has he come out of the experience a better person?

    I'd be amazed if working for him would affect your own reputation.

    1. How does the experience of killing someone through drink driving actually make you a better person? Surely the better person wouldn't have got behind the wheel in the first instance.

    2. Some of my clients and peers within the industry know of this persons history.
    3. I believe he played on the fact that he was MD of a company in order to get his sentence reduced or get early release ! Clearly those with more responsibility ( I laugh at this) are viewed as above the law and treated differently.


    The impact of a MD being away from the business can have a profound and negative effect on the business with the possibility of employees suffering or in the extreme losing their jobs.

    It's fine to die on the sword of principle as long as you don't take food out of your familys collective mouth.

    Personally I wouldn't have a problem, we all make mistakes by varying degree, it's what you do after that matters more.
    “Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring”

    Desmond Tutu
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    It depends on too many factors to make a simplistic judgement. How long ago? Has he shown genuine remorse? Have the victims family expressed forgiveness? Has he come out of the experience a better person?

    I'd be amazed if working for him would affect your own reputation.

    1. How does the experience of killing someone through drink driving actually make you a better person? Surely the better person wouldn't have got behind the wheel in the first instance.

    2. Some of my clients and peers within the industry know of this persons history.
    3. I believe he played on the fact that he was MD of a company in order to get his sentence reduced or get early release ! Clearly those with more responsibility ( I laugh at this) are viewed as above the law and treated differently.

    Stick to your principles, they are yours, no one elses, plenty of jobs out there and you ll never be truly happy working for him in any case, from memory , i believe you did nt like your last boss either, so why go from the fat to the fire?
  • FishFishFishFish Posts: 2,152
    Good question indeed. Let me go round it for a bit. My boss is a complete censored - the worst that I have ever had and really not suited to his job and is quite generally hated. I sort of knew this on interview but I accepted the job - for money - continuity and so on.

    7 months later and I'd be happy to leave even without an offer - and it would hurt him because I'm embedded within the organisation now.

    But in answer to your question, no - I'd take the job because not taking it would not matter to him - he can employ someone else. But I'm not proud of that answer.
    ...take your pickelf on your holibobs.... :D

    jeez :roll:
  • FishFishFishFish Posts: 2,152
    Mr Goo wrote:
    If you had a young family, been out of work for a few months\years I suspect the answer might be different

    Quite.
    It's all very well for some to state, when was it?, are they remorseful ? etc etc. But in my opinion DiC has been a heinous offence for decades. Those that get behind the wheel of a car either straight after or the next morning after having a skinful risk theirs and others lives, and do so knowingly. Therefore they should suffer the full weight of the law if caught. No excuse.

    I really agree with this but nave to reflect on the double jeapordy - his punishment is actually over - in law - once his sentence is over or his fine paid. The law has dealt with him. However, 'The Law' also recognises that conviction and a criminal offence can 'ruin lives'. So whilst the convict is protected from a subsequent punishment for the same crime he is not protected from the consequences of his conviction. That could include increased insurance and also universal and perpetual approbation from society - which is those around him.

    So TS mate suffer it. If I'd been him I'd have moved away and started again and thus avoided the society - that group of people who were in the know - and been somewhat safer.
    ...take your pickelf on your holibobs.... :D

    jeez :roll:
  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,696
    Mr Goo wrote:
    ....work for someone who killed someone whilst drink driving?

    I was offered a job interview this week where I know the MD spent some of his time at Her Majesties pleasure for said offence.
    I have turned it down as this goes against my ethics and could damage my integrity within my industry.

    What about you?

    My brother worked for someone who didn't need drink to be a censored driver! Once his car came off the road and ended up in a pedestrian subway, for example. In fact my brother was a human benefactor as he ensured he never let the guy drive any car he was to travel in.
  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,696
    the consequences of his conviction. That could include increased insurance and also universal and perpetual approbation from society

    concert-crowd-fun-music-people-Favim.com-145900.jpg

    I guess that depends on who he mixes with.
  • It's a shame you didn't at least accept the interview. Then when at the end of the interview when you can ask questions you could say to the MD, "So I here you killed someone whilst drink driving...".

    It would guarantee you didn't get the job, which you didn't want anyway, but you'd have had your questions answered directly.
  • Mr Goo wrote:
    If you had a young family, been out of work for a few months\years I suspect the answer might be different

    Quite.
    It's all very well for some to state, when was it?, are they remorseful ? etc etc. But in my opinion DiC has been a heinous offence for decades. Those that get behind the wheel of a car either straight after or the next morning after having a skinful risk theirs and others lives, and do so knowingly. Therefore they should suffer the full weight of the law if caught. No excuse.
    I assume because he's offered you a job and the rest of your post he's been through the court system and has received the punishment this system has deemed fit. He's out and running his business again. So in what way hasn't he suffered the full weight of the law?

    IMHO the legal system is all we have. The whole "justice" system is all we have. With this in mind I believe those who have gone through the system, received punishment and have been rehabilitated deserve a second chance. It's part of the system that a second chance is there once punishment has been served. If he's been rehabilitated then his past can stay there as far as I'm concerned.

    BTW I've met some very hard working, responsible and very normal seeming ppl who happen to be out of prison on license. One guy I'd worked with for 3 years before someone told me his past. We are talking murder not manslaughter. As in full premeditated taking of life. He's a changed man who's moved on. If the MD has also been rehabilitated then I don't see any issue working for him.

    TBH I don't see why personal life and professional life is so interlinked for you. It's obviously your choice but you work with ppl and don't have to like them. There's some nasty ppl at my work but I keep professional and only deal with them at work.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    Pretty much what TM said.
  • LookyhereLookyhere Posts: 987
    TBH I don't see why personal life and professional life is so interlinked for you. It's obviously your choice but you work with ppl and don't have to like them. There's some nasty ppl at my work but I keep professional and only deal with them at work.

    It does not appear you have read what MrGoo originally posted.

    "I have turned it down as this goes against my ethics and could damage my integrity within my industry"

    Clearly a major concern is his own standing among his peers, reason enough.
  • I read that but I'd be very interested to know what industry he's in that personal history of your employer affects your own personal integrity in the industry. I've never come across an industry like that personally or heard of such a thing. If I was in such an industry (assuming it exists) then I'd want to move out of it.

    Besides I personally believe in the possibility of rehabilitation. As I've said before I've met murderers who have been released rehabilitated. They deserve and got their chance. That is what I believe in but I'm not naive enough to expect it to always be like that.
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,770
    The recruitment agency that set up the interview rang me to see exactly why I had cancelled. I told them I could not reveal full details as it was potentially libelous. It transpires other candidates with similar backgrounds had also turned away from the offer of interview citing 'spurious reasons'.

    It's not only my peers and friends that I've made within the industry that would question my integrity but some of my clients know of the said persons crime. He is viewed rather dimly to say the least.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • It sounds like you have a professional reason for your decision. I don't really see how we can comment on your exact situation due to you quite rightly withholding pertinent information. All we can say is whether in our working life as we know it we could work for someone guilty of a crime who's spent their conviction.

    I'm not in a reputation critical business (or perhaps not at the level that a reputation is an important factor. So it's easier for me to say I would work for someone with a spent conviction I have worked with ppl it on licence (as in not fully spent AFAIK) and I went to school with a kid who was on a charge of manslaughter due to defending hours older brother. In that last case I would completely and without hesitation work with or for him because of who he really was. It seems your guy wasn't a case of nice guy with bad luck.

    So based on what you say, I cannot criticize you for your decision. Insufficient evidence. I do however hope that this guy has learnt from his situation and changed to the better. Purely from your comments I reckon you doubt that had happened. If I knew that to be the case I'd not want to work for him. Although my circumstances might dictate my decision. We all have to put food on the plate and shelter to eat that food in.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    Again I agree pretty much with TM
    But a hypothetical question to any of you who say they could never work for such a man. If during your employment you became aware that your boss had been found guilty of such an offence, or indeed any serious offence in the past, would your principles dictate that you resign on the spot, the instant you learned of their history?
    If the answer is no, then it suggests that in the case outlined by the OP, it is a case that you rather wouldn't work for him rather than your principles dictate that you can't

    Nothing wrong with this btw, not a criticism in any way.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Again I agree pretty much with TM
    But a hypothetical question to any of you who say they could never work for such a man. If during your employment you became aware that your boss had been found guilty of such an offence, or indeed any serious offence in the past, would your principles dictate that you resign on the spot, the instant you learned of their history?
    If the answer is no, then it suggests that in the case outlined by the OP, it is a case that you rather wouldn't work for him rather than your principles dictate that you can't

    Nothing wrong with this btw, not a criticism in any way.
    Erm, while principles are important being able to house and feed your family is generally a higher priority for most people - I'd suggest people might be more likely to look for other work, rather than resign on the spot.

    Presumably Mr Goo is in the same position, which is to say looking for a change rather than unemployed and broke, in which case I suggest he might not have time for such principles.

    To echo what others have said though, if boss in question showed clear signs of remorse and had turned over a new leaf, I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they were a censored I would.
  • ballysmateballysmate Posts: 15,903
    TimothyW wrote:
    Ballysmate wrote:
    Again I agree pretty much with TM
    But a hypothetical question to any of you who say they could never work for such a man. If during your employment you became aware that your boss had been found guilty of such an offence, or indeed any serious offence in the past, would your principles dictate that you resign on the spot, the instant you learned of their history?
    If the answer is no, then it suggests that in the case outlined by the OP, it is a case that you rather wouldn't work for him rather than your principles dictate that you can't

    Nothing wrong with this btw, not a criticism in any way.
    Erm, while principles are important being able to house and feed your family is generally a higher priority for most people - I'd suggest people might be more likely to look for other work, rather than resign on the spot.

    Presumably Mr Goo is in the same position, which is to say looking for a change rather than unemployed and broke, in which case I suggest he might not have time for such principles.

    To echo what others have said though, if boss in question showed clear signs of remorse and had turned over a new leaf, I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they were a censored I would.

    Of course people have to feed their families, I accept that. So your response would be that you would prefer not to, but your principles wouldn't get in the way of doing so until you found something else.
    Nothing wrong with that, that is just having principles and pragmatism in dynamic equilibrium, as most of us do every day of our lives.
  • No I wouldn't.

    I have a very close family member who had massive brain damage, when as a pedestrian they were hit by a car. The driver wasn't drunk - or at least the police didn't do a breath test. It just seems to be an accident. Another (more distant) family member was killed by a drink driver.

    Subsequently a (not very close) friend badly injured someone after drinking heavily. I've basically cut them out of my life. He may be utterly remorseful, but the idea that somebody makes the decision to drink and drive is horrific for me - especially when driving can be dangerous enough, when just sober.
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,634
    As soon as I originally saw this thread I realised that it was a Goo leading question but thought I'd answer it a straightly as possible (even though that was 'it depends'). Lo and behold it has turned out any answer other than 'no, absolutely not' is an example that other people don't have such strong morals.

    I'm surprised that being so moralistic you didn't tell the recruitment consultant your reasons for turning down the interview. If, as you say, he was convicted of this offence then a simple 'I'm not prepared to work for someone who has been convicted of causing a death by driving whilst over the limit' could possibly be lilellous. In fact, it would be the moral thing to let the recruitment consultant know the sort of client they have and if they continue to do business with him then maybe you should consider avoiding the recruitment consultant too.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,110
    It cannot be considered libellous to say that someone has been convicted of a crime.
    Now, if you are saying that they are repeating the offence...
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • ProssPross Posts: 31,634
    PBlakeney wrote:
    It cannot be considered libellous to say that someone has been convicted of a crime.
    Now, if you are saying that they are repeating the offence...

    It still wouldn't be libellous unless put in writing :wink:
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