Tiagra 4800 vs 105 5800

rob39

A part from the obvious 10sp vs 11sp is there such a big difference between the two in performance and weight to make a noticeable difference. Quite a few people I've spoke are split 50/50 on the subject

akh

Hi,

It's 4700, not 4800 .

I have a full 5800 groupset on one bike, and almost full (brakes aside) 4700 groupset on another bike. I can't tell any difference in term of hood/lever ergonomics or shift quality. I can't comment on braking, or the weight difference, as the Tiagra groupset in on a heavy steel bike with full mudguards, which completely masks the difference in groupset weight.

The two bikes are not the same, and I accept that differences in cable routing, etc. could account for the difference (or rather lack of), but I doubt it.

I'm very fussy on cadence, so I do prefer the 11th gear when using a 12-25 cassette, but check where the 'extra' cog in an 11 speed goes, as in some cassettes, it might not matter to you. For example, a 10 speed 12-28 has the same sized gaps as an 11 speed 11-28, so the extra cog only increases gear range, it doesn't reduce the size of the jumps.

Having said all of that, had I not got the steel 4700 bike for cheap on eBay, it'd probably go for 105 for the increased compatibility. With a few exceptions, all Shimano 11 speed components are interchangeable, so with 11 speed you can mix and match 150 5800, Ultegra 6800, Ultegra R8000, Dura Ace 9000, and Dura Ace R9100. With 4700 there are no other fully compatible groupsets available.

trivial_poursuivant

I always found the front derailleur on all 10 speed Shimano a bit troublesome. 105 5800 upwards are a lot better. I used to hate 10sp Ultegra front mechs for trying to change back up . Sometimes it was fine others it was like pushing a lead pole. I’d always get 11sp if you can over 10 mainly for the availability of wheels spares etc. Some 10sp stuff costs almost as much as 11 .

dannbodge

Tiagra 4700 is as good as the 105.

The front shifting is as good now and the rear is also very good.

Braking is the only part of the 4700 that lets it down imo. They are no where near as good as the dual pivots of 5800/6800, but are perfectly adequate.

dj58

The 4700 STI's are compatible with the higher tier groupset brake calipers, therefore that issue can be addressed if desired.

kingdav

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Matthewfalle

kingdav wrote:

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Why wouldn't an 11 speed work if the pull ratios are the same?

timothyw

The ratios aren't the same, the cable pull is the same.

So you could use a 4700 set of shifters with 5800 or 6800 derailleurs and 11 speed cassettes and they'd work for ten of the gears... might even be Shimano have been particularly lazy and you can use all 11.

The difference is in the rear derailleur - similarly you could use 11 speed 5800 or 6800 etc shifters with a 4700 rear mech and 10 speed cassette and it'd work (you'd just have a bonus click in there).

It was a good move by Shimano to be honest - the operation of the 11 speed/4700 shifters is much better than 5700/6700 era ten speed, simplifies their production for the shifters, they just had to alter the clamping point on the tiagra derailleur to change the ratio as required.

kingdav

Matthewfalle wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Why wouldn't an 11 speed work if the pull ratios are the same?

Sorry, you're right I think, 10sp tiagra shifter + 11 sp shimano mech + 10 sp cassette would work.

timothyw

kingdav wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Why wouldn't an 11 speed work if the pull ratios are the same?

Sorry, you're right I think, 10sp tiagra shifter + 11 sp shimano mech + 10 sp cassette would work.

Wrong. You'd need an 11 speed cassette in that combo as per my post above.

If you look at a 4700 and 5800 rear derailleur side by side this is fairly obvious from the clamp point.

kingdav

TimothyW wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Why wouldn't an 11 speed work if the pull ratios are the same?

Sorry, you're right I think, 10sp tiagra shifter + 11 sp shimano mech + 10 sp cassette would work.

Wrong. You'd need an 11 speed cassette in that combo as per my post above.

If you look at a 4700 and 5800 rear derailleur side by side this is fairly obvious from the clamp point.

Yes I see, I was confusing pull ratio and cable pull. So 10 sp Tiagra and 11sp Shimano pull the same length of cable per click. This means that Tiagra rear mechs move a different distance across the cassette per mm of cable pull to 11sp derailleurs.

I still think 4700 is on a bit of a compatibility island. Previously everything shimano 10sp being consistent and everything 11sp being consistent was easier to understand if not as convenient as sram's approach offering wider compatibility across 10 and 11sp.

timothyw

Oh, absolutely, it's confusing, and certainly a touch frustrating if you're using an older 10 speed group and need to replace a component!

Personally my advice to anyone in that situation would be to use it as an excuse to upgrade as soon as possible, as 4700/5800 is in my experience miles better than 4600/5700 etc.

Matthewfalle

TimothyW wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

kingdav wrote:

Compatibility with 4700 is a bit strange. I gather that for some reason Shimano decided to adopt the 11sp pull ratio in their tiagra 4700 shifters, they just have 10 clicks instead of 11. This means that if you have a 4700 groupset you can't upgrade everything piecemeal to swankier/more available bits as things die. If your rear mech fails, you must get a 4700 to replace it because neither a 10sp 105/ultegra/da nor an 11sp would work. Similarly if the shifters broke, you'd have to either replace like for like or replace the rear mech as well at the same time.

Why wouldn't an 11 speed work if the pull ratios are the same?

Sorry, you're right I think, 10sp tiagra shifter + 11 sp shimano mech + 10 sp cassette would work.

Wrong. You'd need an 11 speed cassette in that combo as per my post above.

If you look at a 4700 and 5800 rear derailleur side by side this is fairly obvious from the clamp point.

picture?

akh

http://clipground.com/images/30-speed-r ... part-9.jpg

Can't upload but there's a good comparison picture there.

Moonbiker

5800 crank is alot lighter & a new crank is cheaper than buying replacement 4 bolt chainrings.

akh

You'll never notice the weight difference between individual components. If these figures on road.cc are correct, there's less than 200g between the cranks.

http://road.cc/content/buyers-guide/210 ... himano-105

That's less than the weight of a thick winter jersey. Ever felt heavy winter clothing was slowing you down? :?