Specialized Diverge E5 Comp vs Merida Silex 600 (vs Sonder Camino Al Rival1 or Ridley X-trail C105 M

newtoit

Hi! Some views on my shortlist for a new bike next year. I ride for fitness and pure enjoyment 3 times a week, I prefer off-road tracks (hardpack, dirt, typically non-technical but it's often loose and stony and sometimes bumpy thanks to the tractors that use it) but often ride road to get to it (albeit often unmaintained or back roads) but could see myself also using the bike for short sportives. I currently ride an entry-level hardtail, and consider myself a beginner. Thinking of spending around the £1500 mark.

I thought I had shortlisted to 2 bikes to try:
the Specialized Diverge E5 Comp (Premium Al frame, FutureShock pregressive sus 20mm, Carbon Fibre fork through axle, Shimano 105 22 gears 11/32t, Tektro Spyre Mech Disc brakes, Axis Elite Disc W/set & Espoir Sport tyres, 700x30 (takes up to 42mm) for £1500

the Merida Silex 600 (SilexLite frame, through axle carbon fork, SRAM Apex1 11 spd 44t chainwheel with SRAM Apex shifters, SRAM PG-1130 freewheel 11/42t and Maxxis gravel 35c semi-slick tyres. 9.55kg & £1500).

BUT, have also now looked at the Sonder Camino AL Rival 1 (alloy frame, carbon fork, SRAM Rival HD brakes, SRAM Rival 1 groupset 11spd long cage, WTB Ridler 37c comp tyres with 650/700c wheel options). Online price £1199

AND, a friend of friend is selling a Ridley X-trail C105 Mix 2nd hand with little use apparently and I could have first refusal (HM/HR Unidirectional Carbon frame 142x12 through axle, Oryx Disc 12 TA form with carbon steerer, front & rear Shimano 105, Shimano 50/34, hydraulic shifters, Shim 105 11/32 cassette, Shim HD brakes, Fulcrum 5 w/set with Clement X'plor 700x36c tyres) and will take £1500.

Any views on which might work best for me? I realise they need to be tried out but I really need to decide whether the 2nd hand one is a goer or not or whether you think any of the above are less suitable than the others given the sort of riding I do/plan to do. Thanks.

luv2ride

The Sonder would be my preference, given the SRAM hydro brakes and 650b option. Think I'd spec it with 700c wheels and spend the extra on a pair of Hunt Adventure 650b for offroad wheels with proper fat tyres...easily swapped out with the 700cc with slicks for the road...

tangerineowl

Second the Alpkit bike. Make sure its the red frame

guevarca

I’ve not long got myself a Ridley X Trail C and really liking it, very versatile and practical for off road exploring but still fast on the road when I change the tyres. Mine only has Spyres so imagine a hydro brake one will be even better

newtoit

Hi guys, thanks for all the advice and based on that I went and had a really good look at a Sonder Camino. The store had the Camino Ti in my size, not the Al, very nice ride and now a little bit tempted to titanium, even with a compromise on componentry, although that's a different debate for a different day. My concern with the Camino is that the Small, while on paper typically suitable for riders of 5'2" to 5'7" (I am 5'3") is just about OK on standover with 650b wheels on but the minimum saddle height is too high and I would therefore need to buy a cut-down seat tube to get seat height correct (or go for a custom build, but that presupposes I know what I need, which I don't and a custom build just for a slightly smaller frame seems overkill?).

My question is, if I put a smaller seat tube in, will the fit be wrong elsewhere and therefore should I really be looking for a standard smaller frame that fits me to start with? I know that a proper bike fit would probably help me, but I don't want to buy a bike that's too big for me and then struggle to make it work.

I've also had a bit of a look online at the Surly Straggler 650b as they do a variety of frame sizes including down to a 38cm but it's quite a different proposition to everything else I've looked at to date.

Any help/advice/suggestions would be very gratefully received.

tangerineowl

Looking at your first paragraph again, pretty much describes the kind of riding I do on my ti bike. This weekend I went exploring down a track beside a water course which was great until I hit where the tractor had been. From then on it was rock-crawling/practicing my balancing skills!

Anyway, in regard to the standover being barely ok, I'd say that's your call. Consider what size tyres were on the 650b wheels i.e. if you can fit (and would like to, some time) larger 650b tyres, this will raise the standover slightly.

I'd go a ti frame gravel bike over carbon any day. The ride feel of ti is great for a gravel bike; on and off-road.

If you set your suitable saddle fore-aft position correct to suit your pedal stroke, then as you lower the saddle you'll need to increase the setback of the saddle. The saddle rails will allow some adjustment for setback, but the more you lower the saddle, you're going to reach a point where you'd need a post with more setback to suit.

Ideally I'd find a secondhand cheap carbon post and cut it down. Take it to the shop and set your correct saddle position. See how the fit (stack and reach) is.

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

Looking at your first paragraph again, pretty much describes the kind of riding I do on my ti bike. This weekend I went exploring down a track beside a water course which was great until I hit where the tractor had been. From then on it was rock-crawling/practicing my balancing skills!

Anyway, in regard to the standover being barely ok, I'd say that's your call. Consider what size tyres were on the 650b wheels i.e. if you can fit (and would like to, some time) larger 650b tyres, this will raise the standover slightly.

I'd go a ti frame gravel bike over carbon any day. The ride feel of ti is great for a gravel bike; on and off-road.

If you set your suitable saddle fore-aft position correct to suit your pedal stroke, then as you lower the saddle you'll need to increase the setback of the saddle. The saddle rails will allow some adjustment for setback, but the more you lower the saddle, you're going to reach a point where you'd need a post with more setback to suit.

Ideally I'd find a secondhand cheap carbon post and cut it down. Take it to the shop and set your correct saddle position. See how the fit (stack and reach) is.

Thanks tangerineowl, that's really helpful. (I now understand why the saddle on my current bike is set back as far as it will go ). I'll talk to Sonder and do as you suggest with the seat post. I am tempted to the ti over the alloy. To get equivalent spec with the aluminium it would be £800 more, but only £500 over the other bikes I've been looking at, and if I went with the Apex1 groupset it would only be £300 more.

The other possible contender would be a Genesis Fugio which would offer a bike of the right size - I have been reading about how comfortable a ride a steel frame can give you on rough terrain.

tangerineowl

Frame angles between the Fugio and Camino are a little different. Lower BB drop on the Camino.

Reach is about the same, with the Camino having the taller stack.

What did stand out is the 12mm higher standover on the XS Fugio. Going by your Camino comment, that Fugio would be too high.

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

Frame angles between the Fugio and Camino are a little different. Lower BB drop on the Camino.

Reach is about the same, with the Camino having the taller stack.

What did stand out is the 12mm higher standover on the XS Fugio. Going by your Camino comment, that Fugio would be too high.

Thanks for that tangerineowl, if the standover is higher on the Fugio than the Camino the bike will be too big for me. (Quoted as 743mm for the Camino). Out of interest, where did you find the geo data for the Fugio? I couldn't find it myself but putting my height and inside leg measurement in to a sizing guide it gave me the XS.

I'm finding it difficult to find the sort of bike I want that offers a small enough size with the sort of spec I'd like to have. It's a bit frustrating!

tangerineowl

Fugio frame geo is here:-
http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adv ... ture/fugio

I'll have a think about what else in an alu frame with suitable specs is out there, with a lower standover than the Camino.

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

Frame angles between the Fugio and Camino are a little different. Lower BB drop on the Camino.

Reach is about the same, with the Camino having the taller stack.

What did stand out is the 12mm higher standover on the XS Fugio. Going by your Camino comment, that Fugio would be too high.

Found the geo for the Fugio on Tweeks, sorry! :roll:

Still frustrated though!

tangerineowl

Have you looked at the carbon On-One Bish Bash Bosh?

There's a couple of 1x builds at prices close to either side of your budget.

The geo chart doesn't list standover, however the headtube is 10mm shorter / stack is 17mm lower than the Camino; which tells me the standover should be a bit lower also.

Compared to the Camino: the reach is 1mm different. Seatube and headtube angles very close. Good bb drop.

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

Have you looked at the carbon On-One Bish Bash Bosh?

There's a couple of 1x builds at prices close to either side of your budget.

The geo chart doesn't list standover, however the headtube is 10mm shorter / stack is 17mm lower than the Camino; which tells me the standover should be a bit lower also.

Compared to the Camino: the reach is 1mm different. Seatube and headtube angles very close. Good bb drop.

Thanks, that's interesting. I like their sales pitch and the idea of a Yorkshire base.

I had previously discounted carbon frames as I am not going to be racing and not over-bothered about weight plus thought the material would be less strong than other formats and also because a) I am a bit of a clumsy clod myself and b) because OH, who does occasional adjustments to my bike and also moves it around/clamps it to his at times, is heavy-handed and probably couldn't be expected to treat it with any special care. Are carbon frames stronger than I imagine/am I worrying unnecessarily?

I'll have to talk to them about standover heights for their range. Their 'recommended' rider height sizing charts for their smallest bikes vary according to bike between 5'2", 5'3" and 5'4" but standover is likely to be the limiting factor for me (and if standover isn't right, then I'll probably have issues with saddle height). Unfortunately in the Gravel/Adventure category the bike with the smallest frame option (a 47cm) has mech disc brakes rather than hydraulic and that is a bit of a red line for me.

Their 'Cross range is potentially also of interest and they have a Ti frame option, same issues as above of course. It's a bit of a pain they don't list standover. In my limited experience, garnered recently, for a bike that supposedly fits a rider height of 5'3" (where 5'3" is at the bottom end of the range) the bike is invariably too big for me (and I find it difficult to believe how it could ever fit a rider my size - my legs are not seriously short relative to my total height although standover rather than reach is likely to be the issue).

tangerineowl

I may have found your bike

UK 2018 Giant Toughroad SLR GX0 (1x) or GX1 (2x):-

Both models have hydraulic brakes. The GX1 has Giant's in-house type.

Standover on the Small size is 720mm, which is 20mm? lower than the Camino.

A couple of points I like are the tyres come setup tubeless. Having used a wide-tyre tubeless setup for the last few months, in my opinion its way better than using tubes, off-road and on. You just have to learn a bit about the setup/puncture tips and tools etc. The 700x40mm Giant tyres are probably going to weigh a bit. I'd be looking at swapping them out pretty soon for a lighter-weight set from Schwalbe like the ThunderBurt (I use the old Liteskin 650b) , which is a very good rolling tyre for sealed roads, and mild off-road dry-only grip.

The marketing specs mention the bike can fit a 700x50 tyre. Which is good for clearance, if you ever decide on a 650b wheelset at your height. Something like a 42mm slick tyre would be a good road surface option.

The bar has some flare at the drops, which I find is good to have for control if you're ever in the drops when off-road.

The frame has mounting points.

The stack on the Small is close to the Camino.
The Reach seems to be about 10mm longer, so you might want to try out some shorter stem sizes for best fit.

Personally, I'd pull off that guard under the downtube.

The silver? GX0 kinda looks like ti

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

I may have found your bike

LOL. I like it. The Small is defo a strong contender. I'll look to see if I can get a test ride.

The only thing that makes me twitchy is when Giant says "Bikes designed for riding on a paved surface where the tyres do not lose ground contact, plus smooth gravel roads and improved trails with moderate grades where the tyres do not lose ground contact." I'd like to know where these perfect surfaces are!!! They don't match my experience unfortunately ...

I was trawling through stuff myself early hours (when OH isn't downloading films and taking up all our bandwidth :evil: ) and was looking at Pinnacle's Arkose Wms Ltd (S has a s/o of 736, 7mm less than the Camino). I'm not a big fan of Wms geo but it didn't look vastly different to the equivalent mens bike in S, other than a bit scaled down - although trust me, I'm no expert at reading geometry). Also the Scott Speedster Gravel 10 Disc in a 47cm frame (XXS) with a s/o of 730.3mm.

https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-ar ... e-EV294854

https://www.evanscycles.com/scott-speed ... e-EV314390

How do you think these compare with the Giant?

Thanks tangerineowl, really appreciate your help

tangerineowl

Don't know why I didn't list the Arkose earlier, as I was looking at it a couple of days back while going through Evans' range. It does have some pretty good spec for what it is.

A look over the Scott makes me want to dismiss it, due to it having a rather short chainstay length which limits its max tyre width when you compare it to the Giant and Arkose.
The other thing is its much lower drop to the bars (about 40mm lower than the other two).
With you mentioning the Camino position felt pretty good (the Giant and Arkose have a similar height at the bars), riding the Scott would be far too aggresive (and might hurt) for your riding conditions.

The Arkose has a threaded bottom bracket which in my opinion is always good to have when servicing.
Less issues than your these-days press-fit standards and their potential for creaking>noise/clicking.

A couple of other things stand out between the Giant and Arkose: the Giant has a rather long chainstay (the Arkose's 434mm is more common in a gravel frame). That long chainstay won't have as much 'get up and go' in feel, as the shorter one.

The other thing is the bottom bracket drop on the Arkose is 10mm lower than the Giant. That low BB position will make the bike feel more planted, but if you ever want to put on a narrow tyre e.g. 32mm for a sportive, then you might have to watch out for pedal strikes when cornering.

Regarding the 1x vs 2x chainring options: On the 1x setups, you may find that you feel you're not quite in the right gear for pedalling at a cadence you like, when using the smaller cogs (faster speeds) in the cassette. Or you might find that for your general flat riding speed that one of the smaller cogs feels ideal. It all depends on the gear ratios on the bike.
A 2x crankset will give you smaller jumps between gears > more options for fine tuning your pedalling/cadence.

If you could find both a 1x and 2x Giant bike to test ride, then I'd do that, just to get a feel for the difference in the gear jumps.

newtoit

tangerineowl wrote:

Don't know why I didn't list the Arkose earlier, as I was looking at it a couple of days back while going through Evans' range. It does have some pretty good spec for what it is.

A look over the Scott makes me want to dismiss it, due to it having a rather short chainstay length which limits its max tyre width when you compare it to the Giant and Arkose.
The other thing is its much lower drop to the bars (about 40mm lower than the other two).
With you mentioning the Camino position felt pretty good (the Giant and Arkose have a similar height at the bars), riding the Scott would be far too aggresive (and might hurt) for your riding conditions.

The Arkose has a threaded bottom bracket which in my opinion is always good to have when servicing.
Less issues than your these-days press-fit standards and their potential for creaking>noise/clicking.

A couple of other things stand out between the Giant and Arkose: the Giant has a rather long chainstay (the Arkose's 434mm is more common in a gravel frame). That long chainstay won't have as much 'get up and go' in feel, as the shorter one.

The other thing is the bottom bracket drop on the Arkose is 10mm lower than the Giant. That low BB position will make the bike feel more planted, but if you ever want to put on a narrow tyre e.g. 32mm for a sportive, then you might have to watch out for pedal strikes when cornering.

Regarding the 1x vs 2x chainring options: On the 1x setups, you may find that you feel you're not quite in the right gear for pedalling at a cadence you like, when using the smaller cogs (faster speeds) in the cassette. Or you might find that for your general flat riding speed that one of the smaller cogs feels ideal. It all depends on the gear ratios on the bike.
A 2x crankset will give you smaller jumps between gears > more options for fine tuning your pedalling/cadence.

If you could find both a 1x and 2x Giant bike to test ride, then I'd do that, just to get a feel for the difference in the gear jumps.

Thanks, that all makes sense and I'll rule the Scott out. I probably prefer the lower BB position of the Arkose but appreciate you flagging pedal strike as a potential issue; I have half a plan to complete a sportive this year (although guess it would only be an issue on really tight turns, is that right?).

I am a bit apprehensive about a 1x as I am currently using a triple, but would probably get used to it soon enough. Best to try a 1x & 2x and see the difference, as you say. I have a naturally fast cadence so tend to use my smaller gears more than the bigger ones. Will see if I can get some test rides set up for end Feb, when I'm next in the UK (live in Spain most of the year ) and hopefully be able to make a decision and get spending!