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Speeding not a taboo

mfinmfin Posts: 6,652
edited December 2017 in The cake stop
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42406692/why-is-speeding-not-a-taboo

I thought it would make an interesting debate, particularly as the article is full of holes and generalisations, with facts that aren't relevant to many cases.

One example, a 30mph limit when you're going 40 and there's pedestrians around is one thing. What about at night, on a road that barely has a single pedestrian in the day and certainly none at night and barely a car in sight. Is 40 ok then? I'd say of course it is, some speed limits simply don't work. Of course in the eyes of the law, it's a 30 and that's that.
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  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Why go faster at night ? You can't see as well. There's might well be pedestrians there.
  • For limited access roadways without pedestrians, cyclists, or motor scooters..........it is an absolute 100% fact that the safest speed is within the middle percentile of the "flow of traffic". You create a hazard when you are in the fastest or slowest percentile of vehicles on a freeway.

    It's in numerous studies.

    Numerous studies also show that the middle percentile for speed is usually over the normal limit, but it is NOT so much higher as to actually create a hazard.

    Now, bets are off on streets with bikes, school zones, and pedestrians.

    The biggest issue is distracted driving. Phones, food, makeup, entertainment.

    If the US banned cell usage 100%, no calls or texting, with some steep fines I bet the accident rate would go down drastically.
  • Have you done a speed awareness course? Very interesting stuff, especially stopping distances and the interpretation of your position should you be in an accident in the eyes of the law.

    Speeding makes negligible differences to travel time due to traffic, junctions etc.

    Motorways I would generally agree with burnthesheep. I'm sure there would be circumstances where it wouldn't help.
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,177
    This video should be shown repeatedly for mobile phones - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9swS1Vl6Ok
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,177

    Speeding makes negligible differences to travel time due to traffic, junctions etc.

    I can well believe this - how many times do you catch up with a speeding driver at the next traffic light or junction ? OK I'm getting older now - but what's worth speeding for ? There's censored all difference on most journeys I make.
  • mfin wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42406692/why-is-speeding-not-a-taboo

    I thought it would make an interesting debate, particularly as the article is full of holes and generalisations, with facts that aren't relevant to many cases.

    One example, a 30mph limit when you're going 40 and there's pedestrians around is one thing. What about at night, on a road that barely has a single pedestrian in the day and certainly none at night and barely a car in sight. Is 40 ok then? I'd say of course it is, some speed limits simply don't work. Of course in the eyes of the law, it's a 30 and that's that.

    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.

    However there are too many people who would complain if the BBC published something this direct, so they are forced to publish an indirect article instead. Had the incident on Sunday not happened this would not have been published.
    Fair-weather commuter
    Canyon Ultimate CF 8.0 in Black - WOW :)
    Giant Defy 2 - FCN 4(summer) / 5(winter) - Great bike
    Hybrid - FCN 8 - Relegated to the pub bike
  • The fact that you can buy a car that can go double the speed limit without breaking a sweat doesn’t help. There is nowhere you are allowed to go faster than 70mph. Even in Germany the infamous unrestricted autobahn barely accounts for 1% of roads. (Restrictions mainly due to noise and pollution) speed limits are 130kph so 80mph(ish) . Giving someone a car that can race well past the limit in a matter of seconds and in many you barely feel as though you are doing it doesn’t help. I always felt we should adopt a different strategy to speeding. Points should be awarded only in the most dangerous situations. Ie going over 30mph limits or speeding near schools etc. But not so much for motorway speeding which is statistically less dangerous - but with the caveat of you get a big [email protected] off fine and in true continental style, you have to pay on the spot or they take your car. This is what Belgium do. You pay or they take it away. And it’s at least €150 for a few kph over the limit.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,652
    I think with most things speeding related it is the sweeping generalisations that sound like "any speeding is speeding" don't help. In that article for example, speeding is not a taboo, then it goes on to show a lady who lost her parents with something to do with someone doing 70mph in a 30mph limit. I don't think anyone could defend someone going over twice the speed limit.

    The problem is when speeding is not as much. A speed awareness course might tell you fatality rates where someone is hit at 30mph vs 40mph, or the combined closing speed of two people speeding a bit. But, what it never seems to cover is open straight roads, where nobody is around, and you have a 30mph limit. Is 40mph a problem then? Or is 80mph a problem on a quiet motorway, no, not really.

    More speed restrictions seem to come into play, in new places, but who's ever seen one reversed to what it was. Has it ever happened?

    What's needed is better drivers who are less distracted, some unnecessary speed limits are distracting.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,652
    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.

    Excessively speeding I guess?
  • mouthmouth Posts: 1,196
    mfin wrote:
    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.

    Excessively speeding I guess?

    Horrific incidents like this one are usually a result of a cascade of poor decisions and badly managed events. I don't know the ins and outs of this particular collision but I'll bet that while speed is a major contributor it won't be the only factor.
    The only disability in life is a poor attitude.
  • Speeding? There's no point as there are so many cars, you don't really get anywhere quicker.

    But I do set the cruise control to the speed limit plus a couple mph so it follows the line of traffic, and most of my driving is across the New Forest where it's 40 mph. And it's definitely worth sticking to that as there are loads of ponies / deer / pigs that wander out into the roads at all times. Plus cyclists of course - more than ever it seems.

    My younger self wouldn't have done that - used to have a pretty hot SAAB 9000 and a 405 coupe in the mid 90s. Used to speed a lot of the time, but never caught.... it's where to speed; and when. I regularly used to go back up to Belper from Southampton to visit my dad in those cars, 210 miles and best ever time of 2 hours 40. But used to set off at half ten and could absolutely book it past silverstone and up the M1.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 46,762 Lives Here
    mfin wrote:
    I think with most things speeding related it is the sweeping generalisations that sound like "any speeding is speeding" don't help. In that article for example, speeding is not a taboo, then it goes on to show a lady who lost her parents with something to do with someone doing 70mph in a 30mph limit. I don't think anyone could defend someone going over twice the speed limit.

    The problem is when speeding is not as much. A speed awareness course might tell you fatality rates where someone is hit at 30mph vs 40mph, or the combined closing speed of two people speeding a bit. But, what it never seems to cover is open straight roads, where nobody is around, and you have a 30mph limit. Is 40mph a problem then? Or is 80mph a problem on a quiet motorway, no, not really.

    More speed restrictions seem to come into play, in new places, but who's ever seen one reversed to what it was. Has it ever happened?

    What's needed is better drivers who are less distracted, some unnecessary speed limits are distracting.

    It’s cost vs reward. Reward for speeding is low compared to cost.

    I don’t trust joe public to have a good sense for actually knowing the rare instances when it is ok to speed.

    Stick to the speed limit and leave more time for travel.
  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,706
    Stick to the speed limit and leave more time for travel.

    The only real reason for allowing more time for travel in the UK is because of traffic delays. It's almost impossible to change a journey time significantly just by speeding unless you have 2s and blues.

    In big empty countries, speed does cut journey times, by hours if you are doing several hundred of miles. That doesn't apply to the UK where the best way to cut journey times is to have 2 drivers and stop only to change every couple of hours.
  • wongataawongataa Posts: 844
    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.
    It was likely to have been caused by one car going too fast and being driven in a way that the driver ran out of skill. This meant the car crossed the central reservation and hit the other car that contained fatalities. It was made worse by there being no fence/Armco between the carriageways so crossover crashes are not prevented/reduced in severity. Three of the fatalities and the one serious injury could well have been prevented by the wearing of seatbelts. When you hear that those 4 were thrown from the car you can reasonably assume they were not wearing seatbelts. The cause of the crash is likely to be poor driving combined with excessive speed but the outcome was made worse by the road design and seatbelt choices of the occupants of one of the cars.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    Why do you need to speed? What circumstance is there that doing 40mph rather than 30mph really makes a difference - ie a real difference rather than a perceived difference.
    Faster than a tent.......
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,652
    wongataa wrote:
    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.
    The cause of the crash is likely to be poor driving combined with excessive speed but the outcome was made worse by the road design and seatbelt choices of the occupants of one of the cars.

    This sounds about right.
  • mfinmfin Posts: 6,652
    Rolf F wrote:
    Why do you need to speed? What circumstance is there that doing 40mph rather than 30mph really makes a difference - ie a real difference rather than a perceived difference.

    If you're asking me, I don't really. Being someone who often drives late, in areas where it doesn't have to be that late before you'd be lucky if you saw a car every 5 minutes and won't see any pedestrians at all on a long journey, when driving down a straight clear road that is a 30, 40, or 50 limit, all those limits can seem nothing short of daft. Some of these places are over limited even on a busy day in my opinion.

    Of course, conventional signs can't magically change in different conditions, so there's not much choice but to have limits that work for busier daytime conditions, but when the limit is over zealous it feels more frustrating in the early hours and you have to stick to it.

    Also, the people driving like maniacs, say 70mph in a 30mph, the speed limit makes no difference to those people. It's excessive speeding that needs to be stopped. Kids killing themselves by racing about flat out on A and B roads etc.
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 11,086
    A thread for the OP seeking justification for his/her actions.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,959
    mfin wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Why do you need to speed? What circumstance is there that doing 40mph rather than 30mph really makes a difference - ie a real difference rather than a perceived difference.

    ....... but when the limit is over zealous it feels more frustrating in the early hours and you have to stick to it.

    That's really what I was getting at. It feels frustrating but in reality it makes next to no difference in how long your trip takes; there's a section of A1 near Sherwood Forest where there is a permanent 50mph limit for an accident reduction scheme. It feels truly painful dropping to 50 from 70 and it goes on for a few miles but I think that the impact on journey time is less than a minute.

    The feeling of frustration, whilst understandable, is not really a worthwhile reason to render speed limits ambiguous. IMO!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • KajjalKajjal Posts: 3,404
    Speeding is interesting in how many excuses and self justifications it makes people come out with.

    The speed limit is a legal maximum not a suggestion. Hit someone when speeding at 40mph it is likely you will kill them.
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,177
    mfin wrote:
    Rolf F wrote:
    Why do you need to speed? What circumstance is there that doing 40mph rather than 30mph really makes a difference - ie a real difference rather than a perceived difference.

    If you're asking me, I don't really. Being someone who often drives late, in areas where it doesn't have to be that late before you'd be lucky if you saw a car every 5 minutes and won't see any pedestrians at all on a long journey, when driving down a straight clear road that is a 30, 40, or 50 limit, all those limits can seem nothing short of daft. Some of these places are over limited even on a busy day in my opinion.

    Just wait until a fox or something darts out in front of you - if you're driving fast you'll be off the road and in a ditch in no time. Slower speeds buy you more time.
  • mfin wrote:
    wongataa wrote:
    The direct point behind the article is that the 6 fatalities in Birmingham on Sunday were caused by at least one car speeding.
    The cause of the crash is likely to be poor driving combined with excessive speed but the outcome was made worse by the road design and seatbelt choices of the occupants of one of the cars.

    This sounds about right.

    There is a speed limit in place for the road design.

    That was ignored.

    Had the idiots been obeying the speed limit these deaths would have been avoided!

    I have no problem someone taking themselves out of the gene pool for being stupid but what angers me is someone else has to clear up their mess (and suffer for this) and their actions put others at risk!

    You are just re-enforcing why speeding is not considered a taboo because you are not willing to accept why some limits are in place.
    Fair-weather commuter
    Canyon Ultimate CF 8.0 in Black - WOW :)
    Giant Defy 2 - FCN 4(summer) / 5(winter) - Great bike
    Hybrid - FCN 8 - Relegated to the pub bike
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,177
    I'm not even that keen on idiiots killing themselves with speed. Isn't the average cost of a fatal crash about a million pounds somehow ?
  • robert88robert88 Posts: 2,706
    mfin wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-42406692/why-is-speeding-not-a-taboo

    I thought it would make an interesting debate, particularly as the article is full of holes and generalisations, with facts that aren't relevant to many cases.

    One example, a 30mph limit when you're going 40 and there's pedestrians around is one thing. What about at night, on a road that barely has a single pedestrian in the day and certainly none at night and barely a car in sight. Is 40 ok then? I'd say of course it is, some speed limits simply don't work. Of course in the eyes of the law, it's a 30 and that's that.

    Bear in mind that being allowed to use dangerous machinery in public spaces is a privilege granted under licence and not a right.

    If you don't accept the rules the licence should be withdrawn.
  • Why was it ever accepted that speed cameras are "unfair" unless they are obvious (by being yellow and with signs warning about them)?
    and then the next thing you know
  • joey54321joey54321 Posts: 1,297
    If you don't like the speed limit, then campaign to get it changed and in the meantime stick to it. It's the law and, in my opinion, there is no excuse for it.

    I'd like to see higher fines and tougher penalties for speeding.

    Also, I don't understand people who are angry about speed cameras! It's easy to not get 'caught' by a speed camera...don't speed! They aren't 'out to get you', you're breaking the law.
  • It's like seeing anti-shoplifting measures as a war on shoppers.
    and then the next thing you know
  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,177
    Everyone knows motorists can do no wrong. And no party wants to crack down on bad driving as it's a huge amount of the voting population that drive.

    Roll on the self driving cars - at least you know they won't be justifying speeding as its late at night and obviously there are fewer cyclists or pedestrians around.
  • haydenmhaydenm Posts: 2,868
    I'd like to see more enforcement of limits and bigger penalties for excessive speeds. When someone comes past at 90-100mph on a motorway you often don't expect it even if you see them in the mirrors, excessive speeders are usually the impatient ones tailgating also. I've realised it's not worth getting a fine seeing as I do 30-40k miles per year and I'm not getting a fine just so I could be at a meeting marginally earlier. With more enforcement the majority would still do between 65 and maybe 75mph* with little consequence but it's the excessive speeders who would lose their licenses

    *a lot of people seem to do under 80mph on the speedo
  • dinyulldinyull Posts: 2,962
    It's similar to the old adage of "think of how stupid the average person is, and then think that half of them are stupider than that".

    Now think of how sh*t the average driver is...

    Think a lot has to do with how safe cars are nowadays, the fear factor isn't there of binning it at 70.
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