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SPOTY 2017

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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,308
    BTW how do you rate a sport with several versions of it. For example f1, rallying, touring car, etc. Or moto gp, speed cross, speedway, etc.

    In motorbike racing, which world champion is the best? Is comparing them any different from comparing other top flight athletes? Say road and track cyclists, flat and steeplechase jockeys, tennis and table tennis, etc.

    Is it considered easier to win a World championship in one motorbike discipline than a tour de France cyclist to win in that GT?

    If Rea is racing in a discipline that's not seen as the pinnacle of motorcycle racing then does that mean he's a big fish in a small pond? Would he rate as high on the top rung? That's it it's true to say that if course.

    Devils advocate as I don't have any interest in motorised sports.
    Moto GP is the 'main event' in motorcycling - just as F1 is in motor car racing. That's where the likes of Valentino Rossi race. Britain's last World Champion in it was Barry Sheene in the 70s.

    In Moto GP the bikes are made specifically for racing in Moto GP, while in Rea's Superbikes, they are tuned up versions of bikes that are available for anyone to buy.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 4,022
    So F1 vs Touring Cars WC......
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,308
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    So F1 vs Touring Cars WC......
    Something like that. But I don't know anything about how highly Superbikes is regarded relative to Moto GP (or Touring cars v F1)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,601
    The racing is far closer in Superbikes and Touring cars. For really fun racing BSB and BTCC is, in my opinion, better than the world series. Bigger fields means more action. ITV4 or whatever it's called now does the full BTCC raceday, live on Sundays, every race, including highlights from Saturday. BTCC, Clio Cup, Formula Renault (youngsters in open wheelers, what could go wrong?), Ginetta G50 and Juniors (youngsters in sports cars - ditto). Only one I FF through is the Porsche Carrera Cup - fat bastards in expensive cars.
    7 or 8 hours racing. I records and fast forward through the ads/talky bits.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

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  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,601
    But to be fair, there is some amazing racing in MotoGp, but often only between a few people at the front (the cameras don't really focus on stuff going on behind,)

    But this is coming from someone who sometimes watches the LeMan 24, from beginning to end, including many hours of nothing but headlights.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    edited December 2017
    RichN95 wrote:

    In Moto GP the bikes are made specifically for racing in Moto GP, while in Rea's Superbikes, they are tuned up versions of bikes that are available for anyone to buy.


    Well not really - they have the same silhouette as the bikes you can buy but that is it - they are factory racing (HRC, Corse, Ten Kate, etc) handbuilt one off bikes: 250 BHP, 240 mph, hand made engines, suspension, frames, electronics, bodywork etc. Hundreds of thousands of pounds each. Freaking missiles on two wheels.

    TT bikes are now the same, BSB with its stringent rules are a hundred grand plus each.

    Moto GP is another level but not as silly as F1. Sooner dooper missiles on two wheels. The old 500s were soooper dooper dooper unbridgeable by 99% of people missiles.

    Superbikes and Moto GP are a lot closer than in the days of the Aliens but Marquez, Lorenzo, Rossi et al would still censored off into the distance.

    Road racing is where it’s at: the Dunlops, McGuinness, Martins of this world - testicles the size of boulders. 200 mph through a village 3 abreast anyone. Proper racing.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    edited December 2017
    RichN95 wrote:
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    So F1 vs Touring Cars WC......
    Something like that. But I don't know anything about how highly Superbikes is regarded relative to Moto GP (or Touring cars v F1)


    Moto GP is the gold standard - the one everyone wants. Different level up from WSB - loads of people have dominated WSB and come nowhere in MotoGP.

    At the same time, all the MotoGP and WSB guys worship the roads guys - now that’s an utterly different level.

    At the end of the day though: you know that bloke down the pub who does track days and has got a Gixer thou with Ohlins and an Arkra and his mate tuned the engine? Blokey boy coming last in WSB will still ride away from him one handed while thinking about what to have for dinner.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mjzs3kxA7FI

    Ulster - worlds fastest road race. Enjoy with a beer.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,368
    You're right about rea being at the peak in his sporting discipline, but that's why I think they should take the public out of it. Let serious sports journalists, coaches, athletes, etc decide. I would respect his second place more if there had not been a campaign.

    Perhaps create a sporting academy. All past SPOTY winners and selected / invited journos. Add in selected coaches with a good rep. Let those in the business someway vote.

    Whatever the reason, winning it or placing after a concerted lobby attempt or other attempt to try to rig it is not ideal. It throws into question validity.

    Also the argument against Rea would be against what I personally value of a sporting award. Namely that it's a personality not an achievement alone award. I don't think he has a widely known public persona.

    well they used to do that, and youd get Ryan Giggs or Zara Tindall winning for seemingly no reason, and barely any women represented in their top 10/12 because the beeb trying to be inclusive were inviting the editor of Heat magazine to join in the deliberations.

    and its not a "personality" award , the damn thing was invented in the 50s, when being called a personality either in film, tv or sport, meant you were recognised for your successful career in your chosen field, or in this case sporting achievements, you would be famous a celebrity recognised, we'd probably call them sports stars now, I dont disagree that couldnt update the name to reflect the award is supposed to be awarded to the person to have achieved the most that year in their respective sport, but its the beeb they dont that kind of thing.

    I think Im more confused that alot of people who spent most of this year watching cycling on Eurosport cycling, missed nearly every ad break that featured a promo for World Superbike featuring Johnny Rea, Id go so far as to say most of the time you turned on Eurosport and they hadnt gotten quite round to the cycling, it would be a repeat of a World Superbike race featuring Johnny Rea on instead,if not that Ronnie O Sullivan playing snooker, they dont show alot else on Eurosport.
  • RichN95 wrote:
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    So F1 vs Touring Cars WC......
    Something like that. But I don't know anything about how highly Superbikes is regarded relative to Moto GP (or Touring cars v F1)

    About 3s a lap slower :)

    Moto2 bikes (600cc Honda production engines in proto chassis) are within 1s/lap of WSB at most circuits.


    And Sheene was the last world title winner in the top class only. Danny Kent is the most recent in Moto 3.
    Trail fun - Transition Bandit
    Road - Wilier Izoard Centaur/Cube Agree C62 Disc
    Allround - Cotic Solaris
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,092
    Why don't motoGP teams look to WSB for riders, they all come from the smaller capacity motogp categories don't they? Are WSB riders not rated by the MotoGP teams or is it that once you get good at WSB the money is good enough that it isn't worth the risk of moving to motoGP?
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • philbar72philbar72 Posts: 2,228
    kind of a halfway house, there are some spectacularly good riders in WSB, but they just aren't going to be consistently able of podiuming in motogp against the absolute elite. give any of them Marquez spec bikes that fit them and they'd still not get top 3's in the current field.

    as for BSB and IOM TT, that's just properly good racing from very good and ballsy riders. some of those circuits are silly tough, in terms of technique and bravery required to get a fast lap.
  • cooldadcooldad Posts: 32,601
    Why don't motoGP teams look to WSB for riders, they all come from the smaller capacity motogp categories don't they? Are WSB riders not rated by the MotoGP teams or is it that once you get good at WSB the money is good enough that it isn't worth the risk of moving to motoGP?

    Mat Oxley can explain it much better than me. Interesting read.

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -superbike

    Most MotoGp riders come up through local prototype series, then Moto3 and 2. Pure track bikes are very different to ride than road drived machines. So it's quite a transition from BSB/WSB to Motowhatever.
    I don't do smileys.

    There is no secret ingredient - Kung Fu Panda

    London Calling on Facebook

    Parktools
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,013
    cooldad wrote:
    Why don't motoGP teams look to WSB for riders, they all come from the smaller capacity motogp categories don't they? Are WSB riders not rated by the MotoGP teams or is it that once you get good at WSB the money is good enough that it isn't worth the risk of moving to motoGP?

    Mat Oxley can explain it much better than me. Interesting read.

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -superbike

    Most MotoGp riders come up through local prototype series, then Moto3 and 2. Pure track bikes are very different to ride than road drived machines. So it's quite a transition from BSB/WSB to Motowhatever.

    Interesting, thank you. My dad watches superbikes and MotoGP constantly (he will watch any sporting event that is on TV) and I never really clocked the difference.
  • Re WSB or Moto Gp

    At a combined test day last year one Jonathan Rea on a WSB was faster than all the MotoGP guys (admittedly not the top echelon of GP riders)

    https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... otogp-bike
  • But could he run around the track faster than Farah? All well and good doing it with a motorbike under you! :wink:
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    cooldad wrote:
    But this is coming from someone who sometimes watches the LeMan 24, from beginning to end, including many hours of nothing but headlights.

    To be fair, that’s not massively different than watching a sprint stage or MSR.

    With regard to Rea, never heard of him, nor do I remember seeing any Moto GP highlights on ES weirdly and I watch a fair amount of it.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    But could he run around the track faster than Farah? All well and good doing it with a motorbike under you! :wink:

    But could Farah ride a motorbike around a track faster than him? ;)
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,380
    Does Thomas stand a good chance?
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    FocusZing wrote:
    Does Thomas stand a good chance?


    no.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,380
    FocusZing wrote:
    Does Thomas stand a good chance?


    no.

    Cheers.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    FocusZing wrote:
    FocusZing wrote:
    Does Thomas stand a good chance?


    no.

    Cheers.

    no worries - pleasure to help anytime.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • FocusZingFocusZing Posts: 4,380
    FocusZing wrote:
    FocusZing wrote:
    Does Thomas stand a good chance?


    no.

    Cheers.

    no worries - pleasure to help anytime.

    How about now, have you changed your mind about Thomas winning?
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    no. why? whats happened?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,482
    Who's the money on this year then? Harry Kane?

    I'd have thought Thomas might have a shout on the basis of Welsh block vote and previous good performance from cyclists in the polls (Cav, Wiggo, Hoy etc)
  • gsk82gsk82 Posts: 2,992
    TimothyW wrote:
    Who's the money on this year then? Harry Kane?

    I'd have thought Thomas might have a shout on the basis of Welsh block vote and previous good performance from cyclists in the polls (Cav, Wiggo, Hoy etc)

    He was second favourite behind Kane when I looked yesterday. Footballers don't tend to win because as a sport they're all petty little bitches.
    "Unfortunately these days a lot of people don’t understand the real quality of a bike" Ernesto Colnago
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    TimothyW wrote:
    previous good performance from cyclists in the polls (Cav, Wiggo, Hoy etc)


    shall we not talk about froome from last year?

    World Cup footballerist year may swing it Kane's way.

    must admit that none of the MFs even knew it was on tbh.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Hamilton looks a bit of a flash git in his sparkly bomber jacket. Can he not do a tie ?
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 10,013
    Be lols if G-unit won it after Froome got snubbed so many times.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    cougie wrote:
    Hamilton looks a bit of a flash git in his sparkly bomber jacket. Can he not do a tie ?

    multiple world champion and worth a brazilian pounds. he's allowed to be.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
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