BBC 2 Tonight (Sun 19th) 9pm Britain's Cycling Superheroes: What Price Success ?

frankcannondale
frankcannondale Posts: 69
edited November 2017 in The cake stop
Examining Sir D Brailsford and S Sutton looking into their methods and successes which have suffered criticism.

Maybe worth a look ?

Comments

  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Just a bit wary of this. We spent decades in the cycling wilderness being very amateur and winning bugger all.

    Now we are successful will the media tear it all down for a story ?
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,258
    Build 'em up to knock 'em down.
    It's the British way.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    Brailsford and Sutton looked as sketchy as. They both know exactly what was in that Jiffy bag, they just decided to forget.

    Methinks that unfortunately PB and Cougie have got the British blinkers on........

    If even dopey Millar - who knows a thing or two about this - says that it was all a bit, well, suss, then I'd take that as a pointer.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    i did like the Brailsford "this is what i was told....." a mire minion then.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,258
    Methinks that unfortunately PB and Cougie have got the British blinkers on.........
    Nah.
    I don't mind the guilty being brought down but build 'em up to knock 'em down is a British thing.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.
  • Entertaining when Millar was talking about the effects of the drug supposedly in the jiffy bag I think. He found it had a big effect on him.

    Later on another guy said about Millar was using it to cheat so that was different. Or words to that effect. Basically if you're trying to cheat it gives you a strong effect but if you're using it medically it doesn't. Sorry but this programme has changed my view. I think it was dodgy now.

    But I guess that's the aim of the BBC programme right? Discredit BC performance program. I've fallen for it, what a sucker!

    BTW did anyone find the bit about kaizan funny? Exercise is totally part of kaizan too us dumb westerners right?! Stupid clips of exercising Japanese men in suits. Kind of summed up the programme for me. Sports documentary for the idiots!
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    simonsays wrote:
    Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.


    Would he? From utterly nowhere to top 5 or so overnight?

    Doesn't smell fishy at all.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,187
    Sports documentary for the idiots!
    The vast majority of TV is made for idiots, it has to be made so those that are not enthusiasts can understand it otherwise they won't get the numbers. The lowest common denominator is a very low bar. A TV isn't called the idiots lantern for nothing.
  • Later on another guy said about Millar was using it to cheat so that was different. Or words to that effect. Basically if you're trying to cheat it gives you a strong effect but if you're using it medically it doesn't. Sorry but this programme has changed my view. I think it was dodgy now.

    That was wiggins
    Road - '10 Giant Defy 3.5
    MTB - '05 Scott Yecora
    BMX - '04 Haro Nyquist R24 (don't judge me)
  • Veronese68 wrote:
    Sports documentary for the idiots!
    The vast majority of TV is made for idiots, it has to be made so those that are not enthusiasts can understand it otherwise they won't get the numbers. The lowest common denominator is a very low bar. A TV isn't called the idiots lantern for nothing.
    Personally I think it was aimed at the kind of idiots who are idiots in every part of their life.

    You can not know much about a topic but this kind of talked down to back level below the uninitiated I thought. You can not know much about the sport and still take things in when talked to like a normal person. I just got the feeling it was aimed below the normal person.

    If you follow my POV!
  • simonsays wrote:
    Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.


    Would he? From utterly nowhere to top 5 or so overnight?

    Doesn't smell fishy at all.


    Don't forget that we went from being nowhere in track cycling to winning virtually every gold medal in successive gains.

    Good on the plucky Brits I say
  • Later on another guy said about Millar was using it to cheat so that was different. Or words to that effect. Basically if you're trying to cheat it gives you a strong effect but if you're using it medically it doesn't. Sorry but this programme has changed my view. I think it was dodgy now.

    That was wiggins
    Yes I thought it was but didn't mention his name because I wasn't paying as much attention by that time. I was reading with it in the background. I wanted to watch it but didn't want the time to be completely wasted so was reading too.

    I didn't think it was a particularly good documentary.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,187
    I just got the feeling it was aimed below the normal person.

    If you follow my POV!
    Completely get what you mean but I think your expectations of people are too high.
    Think how stupid the average person is, half the people are stupider than that. Quite scary really.
  • daniel_b
    daniel_b Posts: 11,502
    Veronese68 wrote:
    I just got the feeling it was aimed below the normal person.

    If you follow my POV!
    Completely get what you mean but I think your expectations of people are too high.
    Think how stupid the average person is, half the people are stupider than that. Quite scary really.

    Have always thought the above :-(

    I had recorded this, whilst watching Guy Martin's WW1 tank program (How many recaps do people need?) - assumed it could well be a crock, but that is now confirmed, so just going to purge it from my Humax, and not waste an hour of my life.
    Felt F70 05 (Turbo)
    Marin Palisades Trail 91 and 06
    Scott CR1 SL 12
    Cannondale Synapse Adventure 15 & 16 Di2
    Scott Foil 18
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    simonsays wrote:
    Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.


    Would he? From utterly nowhere to top 5 or so overnight?

    Doesn't smell fishy at all.

    You are aware that Bradley Wiggins finished 4th overall for a rival team prior to sky then it took him 3 years to regain that form to win on a course specifically suited to his particular strengths. This is coupled to the many medals he won prior to taking up road cycling. If you can't see a history of success then maybe you keep your eyes closed and your ears unable to hear additional information over your constant prayer chanting related to a cult that has not taken off.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,644
    simonsays wrote:
    Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.


    Would he? From utterly nowhere to top 5 or so overnight?

    Doesn't smell fishy at all.


    All went according to the rulez though, no?

    So what's your beef?
  • Matthewfalle
    Matthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    simonsays wrote:
    Yup they have ruined it. Could they have done it without playing the system? Maybe not with Bradley but Frome would have got them there. Greedy bastards though and now we look as bad as everyone else. I am surprised Sky are still onboard.


    Would he? From utterly nowhere to top 5 or so overnight?

    Doesn't smell fishy at all.


    All went according to the rulez though, no?

    So what's your beef?

    Well - as no one actually knows (or purports to know, even though they prided the,selves on being the most organised team ever in the whole history or organised teams) what was in the Jiffy bag no one can actually say that they stuck to the rules. And that's just for BW.

    For CF to transform overnight..... Well. Who can say what went on behind closed doors.

    Transparency, eh - massively lacking.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,644
    Ha OK.

    Look, I think it's probs dodgy too.

    I'm just surprised that's that attitude you're taking.

    They've passed all the tests, and none of the rules are broken. In another instance, you'd be pretty OK with that.
  • crispybug2
    crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    My take:-

    As someone mentioned earlier it was an article piece aimed at the lowest common denominator, a real K.I.S.S. piece!

    Now speaking personally for me to be convinced I would want a proper forensic examination of all salient facts, something like ‘The Death of Marco Pantani’ or to a lesser degree ‘Seven Deadly Sins’ , this documentary would barely be worth an epilogue in either of these two books, the evidence was that thin

    Having said that Shane Sutton doesn’t come out of it very well but, and let’s be brutally honest here, he’s no Michele Ferrari is he?
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    I think this documentary showed that if you set a goal then control all the variables you can in an environment of competition then you get results. This is pretty standard for elite sport and looking back they have achieved what they set out to do.

    Who thinks that if they selected a single individual for each event 4 years out and paid that individual the money to turn up they would be as successful as finding 4 hopefuls and pitting them against each other to determine the best for selection. Every professional sport I can think of does this in a way that mirrors the competition.

    Millar pretty much sums it up in that if you exclude sexism, racism or bullying then he thinks it should be a pretty tough and results based organisation. Does anyone think that Stephen Parks who has taken over will be less focussed on creating internal competition with the sole goal of winning the most medals given his pay check is related to the success of the athletes and the prior administration set really high expectations. Sure there will be more management oversight to prevent the either real or false allegations that have come to light regarding babies and gimps. If they want continued success then there has to be this element of competition at elite sport as unfortunate as this may be.
  • Why is Froome's name never brought into these things? He allegedly has asthma, he had to get a TUE for a 'cough' before Romandie which he then went on to win. Every article is Wiggins, Wiggins, Wiggins, but there's NO difference between either of them. Sky applied for a TUE for a banned steroid to bring their riders back into contention.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    It's funny how some people get uppity about a documentary like this. I think some cycling fans can't see the wood for the trees and think a documentary like this will change the perceptions of any non-cycling fan into ones that are negative. I don't think that's a given at all.

    I happened to watch this with my dad who doesn't follow cycling at all, he didn't watch much of it when it was any of the olympics concerned. I asked him after a very short and vague question on purpose "do you think they were cheating then?", his answer was "it didn't say they did, it sounds like a ruthless setup though". I'm not saying that's what any non-cycling fan would take away from it, just that it's at odds with what so many people automatically assume the effect will be.

    Cycling fans definitely get over protective though, it's not a problem, no one really cares. Now, if someone was convicted of doping and had results taken off them, it would taint everything for non-cycling fans, but that hasn't happened and does not look like it's going to.

    For cycling fans who already know this subject in-depth and wanna get protective, there's not going to be anything new in it so don't watch it. I only did as I was sat at my folks having a catch up and it happened to be on.

    If you don't like the way cycling is portrayed, in particular Sky and British Cycling, tough sh1t, it's a product of what they are like and how they operate, nothing else.