Elite Kura - ridiculously high resistance

shockedsoshocked

Posting on behalf of a friend:

He's just got himself an Elite Kura on my recommendation (I have the Muin but this is basically the newer model from my understanding).

However when he's riding the bike in the 34x30/32 at a cadence of around 90 he's getting readings of ~200w. On my muin I'd expect that ratio to get me to barely 100w.

Anyone experience similar and if so how did you resolve it? Getting nearly 200w in the little ring and top sprockets seems like incredibly high resistance to me?

stevie63

How is he measuring power? If it’s using the trainers own power measurement then I would imagine it’s over reading.

mamba80

email elite and ask them...... info@elite-it.com

it needs calibrating too via their app.

redvision

mamba80 wrote:

email elite and ask them...... info@<span class="skimlinks-unlinked">elite-it.com</span>

it needs calibrating too via their app.

This.

There are a few threads on other forums detailing similar problems which were resolved with help from elite and through calibrating the kura correctly (using the app).

StillGoing

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Posting on behalf of a friend:

He's just got himself an Elite Kura on my recommendation (I have the Muin but this is basically the newer model from my understanding).

However when he's riding the bike in the 34x30/32 at a cadence of around 90 he's getting readings of ~200w. On my muin I'd expect that ratio to get me to barely 100w.

Anyone experience similar and if so how did you resolve it? Getting nearly 200w in the little ring and top sprockets seems like incredibly high resistance to me?

He's using it wrong. Its a fluid resistance trainer so the resistance is high. You will rarely get out of the inner ring when using the Kura so should ignore what ratios you use on the road. Concentrate instead on the power readings from the inbuilt power meter. I'd often be centre of the block and on the inner ring for most efforts.

Its a very good turbo trainer and the user should forget what gears they use on the road and concentrate on the power readings. If pairing it with a cycle computer, make sure that the wheel diameter is set correctly too.

fenix

I do think there's something wrong there. What would I do - I haven't got a 34/32 sprocket to use.

200W isn't very low at all - so basically that trainer (if it's right) is unusable for anything less than 200+W riding ?

That's clearly wrong.

964cup

Sounds a bit high in terms of required power if he's really doing 13km/h (34x30@90rpm). This is the power to speed chart from Elite's website for the Kura:



It has got a quite aggressive power profile, requiring 700w to do 35km/h - by contrast an Elite Crono Fluid theoretically needs about 450w for that speed. I say theoretically because mine is old and only needs about 280-300w for 35km/h according to my P2Max. The base data for power at 20/40/60kph for all the current models of Elite trainer is here: http://www.elite-it.com/sites/default/f ... 7_-_en.pdf. You'll see that the Kura is supposed to require 180w to do 20km/h where the Muin only needs 150. You'll also see that the power curves are non-linear.

Lots of power/speed curves for a variety of trainers here: http://www.powercurvesensor.com/cycling ... er-curves/

fenix

Jeez is that designed for Track Sprinters or something ?

StillGoing

The My E training software is really only of use with the Kura for calibration purposes. Ignore the speed and concentrate on the watts. Its a good trainer provided you get your head around ignoring the gears you use on the road.

https://youtu.be/bA6iOQsCNzk

mamba80

Dont really see the point of the Kura, its just not cheap enough to be sacrificing the Smart and ERG mode of the Direto and if its resistance is so hi as not to allow the use of the outer chain ring, its just another tick against it, no matter how accurate its PM.

timothyw

I've got a turbo muin also and would agree that sounds a bit extreme - if he can't get gearing low enough to warm up and cool down on it then it's not much use. Sounds like it might be defective and worth a swapout.

Although would echo what others have said that you can't judge a fluid trainer by the 'speed' or gearing that you are used to using on the road.

Not sure how extended his efforts have been, but it is worth mentioning that it will get easier to turn the pedals once the fluid has warmed up - I mean, if he was storing the trainer in the garage during the recent cold snap, and had literally only just started pedalling it isn't entirely surprising that he would need those watts and gears to get it moving - it should soon become more manageable.

timothyw

mamba80 wrote:

Dont really see the point of the Kura, its just not cheap enough to be sacrificing the Smart and ERG mode of the Direto and if its resistance is so hi as not to allow the use of the outer chain ring, its just another tick against it, no matter how accurate its PM.

Well, i suppose the point is that the Kura came out a year ago whereas the Direto is new - presumably in another few months when stocks are exhausted they'll drop the Kura entirely, although the Kura is considerably more compact which is a consideration for storage and taking it to races for warm ups.

And it sounds like the Direto is an exceptionally good trainer for the money, given DC rainmaker opens his review by saying it is now the trainer to beat in all but a few use cases.....

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

I've got a turbo muin also and would agree that sounds a bit extreme - if he can't get gearing low enough to warm up and cool down on it then it's not much use. Sounds like it might be defective and worth a swapout.

Although would echo what others have said that you can't judge a fluid trainer by the 'speed' or gearing that you are used to using on the road.

Not sure how extended his efforts have been, but it is worth mentioning that it will get easier to turn the pedals once the fluid has warmed up - I mean, if he was storing the trainer in the garage during the recent cold snap, and had literally only just started pedalling it isn't entirely surprising that he would need those watts and gears to get it moving - it should soon become more manageable.

You can get the gearing low enough to warm up, that's the point. Users are too hung up on using the gearing they use on the road, thinking that will give them the same speed and power output or that turning the pedals should be as easy. I agree entirely that it was a good introduction to direct mount "smart" trainers and for those of us that can fathom out how to work gears to up resistance and aren't that interested in ERG mode, it poses no problems. With a 1% accuracy power meter built in, its easy to monitor what you're doing and at a release price of £340 it wasn't that expensive a layout for a direct mount turbo. The Direto has now superseded it and I'm pleased to have one now, but the Kura is still a good trainer.

cougie

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

However when he's riding the bike in the 34x30/32 at a cadence of around 90 he's getting readings of ~200w.

OK I guess he can slow down a bit for the warmup but that's a very low gear. Lower than I have anyway.

It just seems weighted wrongly towards the top end unless it's the cold fluid explanation.

redvision

mamba80 wrote:

Dont really see the point of the Kura, its just not cheap enough to be sacrificing the Smart and ERG mode of the Direto and if its resistance is so hi as not to allow the use of the outer chain ring, its just another tick against it, no matter how accurate its PM.

I disagree. Smart trainers are good but when they go wrong (and they invariably do) they are a pain in the behind. Plus ERG mode isn't for everyone (to quote shane miller). The direto is £695 whilst the kura is available for £500. Thats quite a big difference.

Following disappointments of having a kicker snap, kicker and tacx neo all develop faults, i have been seriously considering a kura - a quiet turbo, with excellent resistance, good 'road' feel and most importantly to me, a very accurate power meter.

edit: i should add that i am actually considering a direto and it's a straight choice between that and the kura.

Ben6899

No one has asked yet, I don't think. Does it feel like 200W resistance when it's giving that reading on 34x32?

Or does it feel like 100W as might be expected?

Because the former tells you the trainer is broken or the fluid isn't being given chance to warm up. The latter indicates it needs calibrating.

birdie23

Sounds to me like it's either not calibrated or the fluid is cold. I used to keep my fluid trainer in a shed for a while and it was brutal when you first got on it until it'd had ten minutes or so to warm up.

redvision wrote:

edit: i should add that i am actually considering a direto and it's a straight choice between that and the kura.

If it helps the Direto is really good, just got mine and I'm enjoying it. Erg mode takes some getting used to though.

I went from a Elite Chrono Fluid and I can't decide whether the estimated power Zwift showed previously was about right or not, think I need to do a steadier ride and see how my legs feel after it.

StillGoing

Ben6899 wrote:

No one has asked yet, I don't think. Does it feel like 200W resistance when it's giving that reading on 34x32?

Or does it feel like 100W as might be expected?

Because the former tells you the trainer is broken or the fluid isn't being given chance to warm up. The latter indicates it needs calibrating.

It will be the former and it isn't broken. It's a fluid trainer and how it is meant to be. If users simply get it out of their head that the usual road gearing does not apply and concentrate on the power readings as Elite intended, they'll be fine. You can see in the video that Shane Miller struggles to get going in the inner ring despite his ability. I'd advise the OP, if they really need assurance, to PM Shane and ask him. He tests and reviews enough models that Elite etc wouldn't send him a duff one.

https://youtu.be/bA6iOQsCNzk

birdie23

philthy3 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

No one has asked yet, I don't think. Does it feel like 200W resistance when it's giving that reading on 34x32?

Or does it feel like 100W as might be expected?

Because the former tells you the trainer is broken or the fluid isn't being given chance to warm up. The latter indicates it needs calibrating.

It will be the former and it isn't broken. It's a fluid trainer and how it is meant to be. If users simply get it out of their head that the usual road gearing does not apply and concentrate on the power readings as Elite intended, they'll be fine. You can see in the video that Shane Miller struggles to get going in the inner ring despite his ability. I'd advise the OP, if they really need assurance, to PM Shane and ask him. He tests and reviews enough models that Elite etc wouldn't send him a duff one.

https://youtu.be/bA6iOQsCNzk

You are right that usual road gearing doesn't apply, however you shouldn't be able to get the required 'wheel' speed for 200W in 34x32 since 'wheel' speed is how fluid trainers ramp up resistance. If the trainer is meant to give that resistance at that wheel speed then it's useless to the majority of the market, because 200W is a lot for most people.

timothyw

Honestly, if putting out 200w for five minutes while the trainer warms up is a lot, then this probably isn't the trainer for you.

If you're a brick shithouse who wants to smash 2000w sprint intervals, it's perfect. No resistance adjustment mechanism to go wrong. Accurate power meter. Compact.

It is not built for mountain goats.

birdie23

TimothyW wrote:

Honestly, if putting out 200w for five minutes while the trainer warms up is a lot, then this probably isn't the trainer for you.

If you're a brick shithouse who wants to smash 2000w sprint intervals, it's perfect. No resistance adjustment mechanism to go wrong. Accurate power meter. Compact.

It is not built for mountain goats.

Have you looked at the wattage chart posted further back? 34*32 at 90rpm is about 12kph. 200W isn't until 20kph on a Kura.

Beatmaker

Sorry to hijack, but I have a question for ShockedsoShocked and TimothyW. I see you both have the turbo Muin, which I can get new for about £250 at the moment. What do you think of the Muin, still a decent enough turbo for that kind of money?

timothyw

birdie23 wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Honestly, if putting out 200w for five minutes while the trainer warms up is a lot, then this probably isn't the trainer for you.

If you're a brick shithouse who wants to smash 2000w sprint intervals, it's perfect. No resistance adjustment mechanism to go wrong. Accurate power meter. Compact.

It is not built for mountain goats.

Have you looked at the wattage chart posted further back? 34*32 at 90rpm is about 12kph. 200W isn't until 20kph on a Kura.

Yeah... I'm pretty sure that's when it is up to temperature. The OP doesn't seem to have contradicted the suggestion that the machine was cold when they were getting these results.

If it was up to temperature, then as you'll see from my original post, he should probably send it back...

Beatmaker, for that money the turbo muin is great - I paid £150 for mine second hand a year ago and haven't regretted it - does that include the smart sensor?

I think for most people the Turbo Muin and some kind of crank/pedal based power meter probably makes more sense than the Kura - personally I use the smart sensor for pseudo power and it is just fine for zwift etc - you do at least know the numbers are consistent where with a wheel on turbo there are a lot more unknown factors affecting accuracy of pseudo power (tyre type, pressure etc).

It's also quiet - my 2 year old was happy to sleep while I was on it downstairs, I think the desk fan is louder!

StillGoing

birdie23 wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Honestly, if putting out 200w for five minutes while the trainer warms up is a lot, then this probably isn't the trainer for you.

If you're a brick shithouse who wants to smash 2000w sprint intervals, it's perfect. No resistance adjustment mechanism to go wrong. Accurate power meter. Compact.

It is not built for mountain goats.

Have you looked at the wattage chart posted further back? 34*32 at 90rpm is about 12kph. 200W isn't until 20kph on a Kura.

That is the point though, ignore speed on the Elite training app as it is next to useless other than for calibration. Use the Kura in Zwift and you'll get an accurate speed reading for the watts being put out.

fenix

It's not perfct for Zwift though is it - youd want a more realistic cadence and gearing.

timothyw

Fenix wrote:

It's not perfct for Zwift though is it - youd want a more realistic cadence and gearing.

If you want that, spend £600+ and get a direct drive turbo with variable resistance.

IMHO though and from experience the road feel of the Turbo Muin is better than on a variable resistance trainer of similar cost.

You just have to use your imagination, and if you like change to a more difficult gear when you hit a hill on zwift....

Honestly though, I can't see the point in having a smart turbo that gets harder when you hit a hill just in order that I can change to an easier gear on my bike in order to go back to the cadence and power that I was previously riding at - I mean, seriously, why?

The only reason I can see to change gear on a turbo is if I want to vary my cadence, or change my effort.

redvision

I have a friend who recently bought the muin and he is absolutely chuffed with it.

If you already have a power meter then it makes more sense to buy the muin and use with that, unless of course you have a different bike for the turbo without a pm.

As has been pointed out above, if you do buy a fluid trainer you need to forget about training to speed or using the gears as you would outside and train to power.

StillGoing

TimothyW wrote:

Fenix wrote:

It's not perfct for Zwift though is it - youd want a more realistic cadence and gearing.

If you want that, spend £600+ and get a direct drive turbo with variable resistance.

IMHO though and from experience the road feel of the Turbo Muin is better than on a variable resistance trainer of similar cost.

You just have to use your imagination, and if you like change to a more difficult gear when you hit a hill on zwift....

Honestly though, I can't see the point in having a smart turbo that gets harder when you hit a hill just in order that I can change to an easier gear on my bike in order to go back to the cadence and power that I was previously riding at - I mean, seriously, why?

The only reason I can see to change gear on a turbo is if I want to vary my cadence, or change my effort.

Agree completely. For me, it is one of the advantages of the Kura; no need to change gear with the ups and downs. Up the cadence to go faster or change gear. One area I prefer it over my Direto.

birdie23

philthy3 wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Fenix wrote:

It's not perfct for Zwift though is it - youd want a more realistic cadence and gearing.

If you want that, spend £600+ and get a direct drive turbo with variable resistance.

IMHO though and from experience the road feel of the Turbo Muin is better than on a variable resistance trainer of similar cost.

You just have to use your imagination, and if you like change to a more difficult gear when you hit a hill on zwift....

Honestly though, I can't see the point in having a smart turbo that gets harder when you hit a hill just in order that I can change to an easier gear on my bike in order to go back to the cadence and power that I was previously riding at - I mean, seriously, why?

The only reason I can see to change gear on a turbo is if I want to vary my cadence, or change my effort.

Agree completely. For me, it is one of the advantages of the Kura; no need to change gear with the ups and downs. Up the cadence to go faster or change gear. One area I prefer it over my Direto.

You could do that on the Direto too if you want to by turning off the trainer difficulty.

StillGoing

birdie23 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

TimothyW wrote:

Fenix wrote:

It's not perfct for Zwift though is it - youd want a more realistic cadence and gearing.

If you want that, spend £600+ and get a direct drive turbo with variable resistance.

IMHO though and from experience the road feel of the Turbo Muin is better than on a variable resistance trainer of similar cost.

You just have to use your imagination, and if you like change to a more difficult gear when you hit a hill on zwift....

Honestly though, I can't see the point in having a smart turbo that gets harder when you hit a hill just in order that I can change to an easier gear on my bike in order to go back to the cadence and power that I was previously riding at - I mean, seriously, why?

The only reason I can see to change gear on a turbo is if I want to vary my cadence, or change my effort.

Agree completely. For me, it is one of the advantages of the Kura; no need to change gear with the ups and downs. Up the cadence to go faster or change gear. One area I prefer it over my Direto.

You could do that on the Direto too if you want to by turning off the trainer difficulty.

Direto doesn't have the feel of the Kura, but it has advantages in other areas.

sh-g

I have the same "situation" but don't see it as a problem. As one the repliers say, just stay in the small chain ring.