Tyre Width Choice for the winter
Comments
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neeb wrote:I see an awful lot of data and opinion apparently showing that wider tyres are faster based on theory and on lab-based tests of rolling resistance, but the best way to test this should simply be to compare speeds at a given power output, with all other factors kept constant.
Does anyone have any links to such data?
I moved from 23 to 25 recently and to be honest I can't really tell the difference (other than obviously it feels slightly less harsh over rough roads if run at lower pressures), and it certainly doesn't seem to have added any detectable speed.
The pros seem to be running 25mm most of the time except for races on cobbles etc, and still at fairly high pressures - difficult to believe that if there were significant advantages to wider tyres and very low pressures they wouldn't be exploiting them.. Or are they really just set in their ways and missing a trick? Surely the marginal gains folk would have forced a change?
Obviously depends heavily on individual rim/tyre width and pressure as to the resulting profile. And of course there’s drag to consider. As for the tyre pressure, top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it. In time my guess would be that pro road cycling will embrace wider wheels and tyres in much the same way as electronic gears, disc brakes, new BB standards, etc.0 -
25 mm is already pretty wide already compared with what was ridden in the past0
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23’s for me although I think they’re wider on the rims I have. No real reason behind them, they’re just what came with the bike.0
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25's purely because that's the widest I can get through the frame.0
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neeb wrote:
I moved from 23 to 25 recently and to be honest I can't really tell the difference (other than obviously it feels slightly less harsh over rough roads if run at lower pressures), and it certainly doesn't seem to have added any detectable speed.
So you have noticed a differenceI'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
Yes, but only as a result of assuming it’s safe to run the tyre at a lower pressure given pinch-flat risk. The 23s would feel much the same at the same pressure.SloppySchleckonds wrote:neeb wrote:
I moved from 23 to 25 recently and to be honest I can't really tell the difference (other than obviously it feels slightly less harsh over rough roads if run at lower pressures), and it certainly doesn't seem to have added any detectable speed.
So you have noticed a difference
I’m actually running tubulars most of the time in the summer, so the difference is even less certain. Although I know from experience you CAN get pinch flats on tubs, and I guess I feel confident in running the 25s at a slightly lower pressure. But it’s all quite marginal.0 -
neeb wrote:
Yes, but only as a result of assuming it’s safe to run the tyre at a lower pressure given pinch-flat risk. The 23s would feel much the same at the same pressure.SloppySchleckonds wrote:neeb wrote:
I moved from 23 to 25 recently and to be honest I can't really tell the difference (other than obviously it feels slightly less harsh over rough roads if run at lower pressures), and it certainly doesn't seem to have added any detectable speed.
So you have noticed a difference
I’m actually running tubulars most of the time in the summer, so the difference is even less certain. Although I know from experience you CAN get pinch flats on tubs, and I guess I feel confident in running the 25s at a slightly lower pressure. But it’s all quite marginal.
But you couldn't run the 23s at that pressure because of the pinch flat risk......... so there is a difference.
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Bungle73 wrote:Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
You said:Milemuncher1 wrote:Personally, I stick to 25’s all year round.
I use continental GP4000sII in the summer, and Schwalbe Durano plus, or Tannus, in the winter.
You also saidMilemuncher1 wrote:The Tannus are 28s
Both of those statements can't be true, so one is a lie. Good luck with your court case
Made me week...
I ride 25s and 38s. I like the 38s @ 40PSI for doing mad jumps off kerbs. Proper Redbull Rampage type sh!t.0 -
Simon Masterson wrote:top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it.
No they don't."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
The problem is properly quantifying the difference, as it’s not completely clear how much you can reduce the pressure in a 25mm tyre compared to s 23mm to get exactly the same pinch flat risk. I guess with tubulars at least this could be calculated reasonably feasibly - you have an almost round-section tube of known volume and you want to know what pressures correspond to the same compressibility, to the point of pinching.. Anyone have time to do the maths? :-)lostboysaint wrote:But you couldn't run the 23s at that pressure because of the pinch flat risk......... so there is a difference.0 -
I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
There seem to be loads of people that assume what's correct for their local conditions are then universally applicable.0 -
Charlie Potatoes wrote:Simon Masterson wrote:top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it.
No they don't.
Go on then, explain...0 -
The pros ride from following pros on Strava....Simon Masterson wrote:Charlie Potatoes wrote:Simon Masterson wrote:top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it.
No they don't.
Go on then, explain...
1. Off season training, at home or more often in training camps, possibly Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Monaco, Nice etc or their home country.
2. During the season as off season pretty much, but more riding in northern latitudes as it is warmer mostly.
3. Races. Many roads are re-surfaced for Grand tours so they are pretty nice.
the problem is who exactly is 'most of us'?
If you are talking about the UK then the pros ride mostly on smoother roads. The UK roads are pretty crap, million pound houses with potholed, surfaced dressed roads outside. I blame the Tory austerity.
Investing in transport infrastructure rarely pays for itself, some countries pay for it for the greater good knowing it will be a treasury money loser even though it will probably benefit the local and national economy.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
There seem to be loads of people that assume what's correct for their local conditions are then universally applicable.
You’re correct in your thinking. A lot of people in the ‘cycling world’ take a piece of advice, or information, which is sound, for the exact circumstances specified, then regurgitate and repeat the advice, in a parrot like fashion, without taking the specific circumstances into account, tyres, and all things tyre related are a very good example of this. There are others, that comprise the ‘Cycling B.S. bingo’ game. It’s a fun game, where you assign a number to a ‘phrase that pays’, get them all ( and you can ‘get’ them) simply by sitting in any coffee shop / Cafe, on any given Sunday, and shout BINGO, as loud as possible, it’s fun. But getting back to tyres / widths / pressures, for a moment, it’s horses for courses, but with a bit of trial and error, you’ll find what combinations work for you. Personally I run a 25mm tyre as default, at a pressure of between 80 and 90 psi, because I find it more comfortable than a thinner tyre, at higher pressure. I’ll ride with a 28mm tyre ( Tannus airless ) when the conditions dictate, simply because if it’s wet and dark, I find I tend to hit more tyre damaging rubbish, because I can’t see it as clearly as when it’s dry and light. It’s a case of ‘different strokes for different folks’ though, and the only way you’ll make an informed decision is to gain experience, by riding different combinations in differing conditions, then choose which one works best for you.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:
The pros ride from following pros on Strava....Simon Masterson wrote:Charlie Potatoes wrote:Simon Masterson wrote:top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it.
No they don't.
Go on then, explain...
1. Off season training, at home or more often in training camps, possibly Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Monaco, Nice etc or their home country.
2. During the season as off season pretty much, but more riding in northern latitudes as it is warmer mostly.
3. Races. Many roads are re-surfaced for Grand tours so they are pretty nice.
the problem is who exactly is 'most of us'?
If you are talking about the UK then the pros ride mostly on smoother roads. The UK roads are pretty crap, million pound houses with potholed, surfaced dressed roads outside. I blame the Tory austerity.
Investing in transport infrastructure rarely pays for itself, some countries pay for it for the greater good knowing it will be a treasury money loser even though it will probably benefit the local and national economy.
Exactly, for the most part, grand tour level riders spend a lot of their racing (and training) time on very good road surfaces, and therefore don't need to choose their tyre pressures to accommodate poor road surfaces nearly as much as the rest of us do, but then again many continental roads are much better kept than those in the UK anyway.0 -
The problem is properly quantifying the difference, as it’s not completely clear how much you can reduce the pressure in a 25mm tyre compared to s 23mm to get exactly the same pinch flat risk. I guess with tubulars at least this could be calculated reasonably feasibly - you have an almost round-section tube of known volume and you want to know what pressures correspond to the same compressibility, to the point of pinching.. Anyone have time to do the maths? :-)
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/03/ ... take-home/The 15% as desirable tire drop was based on the recommendations of several tire manufacturers, but not on actual testing. So the chart shows how much you need to inflate an average 1990s tire to achieve a tire drop of 15% – nothing less and nothing more.
To much tyre drop = pinch flat0 -
Loads of roads break up due to heavy rain, poor maintenance, high traffic use and ice freezing in sections during the winter. UK has all those conditions, not surprising. I think there's probably a correlation between rail network quality and road quality.Simon Masterson wrote:ZMC888 wrote:
The pros ride from following pros on Strava....Simon Masterson wrote:Charlie Potatoes wrote:Simon Masterson wrote:top level pro riders get to ride on much better road surfaces than most of us do, which may partly explain it.
No they don't.
Go on then, explain...
1. Off season training, at home or more often in training camps, possibly Balearic Islands, Canary Islands, Monaco, Nice etc or their home country.
2. During the season as off season pretty much, but more riding in northern latitudes as it is warmer mostly.
3. Races. Many roads are re-surfaced for Grand tours so they are pretty nice.
the problem is who exactly is 'most of us'?
If you are talking about the UK then the pros ride mostly on smoother roads. The UK roads are pretty crap, million pound houses with potholed, surfaced dressed roads outside. I blame the Tory austerity.
Investing in transport infrastructure rarely pays for itself, some countries pay for it for the greater good knowing it will be a treasury money loser even though it will probably benefit the local and national economy.
Exactly, for the most part, grand tour level riders spend a lot of their racing (and training) time on very good road surfaces, and therefore don't need to choose their tyre pressures to accommodate poor road surfaces nearly as much as the rest of us do, but then again many continental roads are much better kept than those in the UK anyway.0 -
ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
I think you are lying about your lawsuit threat. I strongly suspect your pants are on fire also.0 -
HaydenM wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?
I'm not in the UK and yet the website works perfectly fine!
Also stranger than stranger there seem to be many Americans reviewing products for Bikeradar like Ben Delaney.
Some people think this world wide web thingy must mean that people from all over the world can use it. How wrong they are!
Bloody foreigners coming over 'ere using our web forums. Take back control, you can save the NHS 200,000,099 per week by introducing the UK only intranet. http://ukw.bikeradar.co.uk 0 -
ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
There seem to be loads of people that assume what's correct for their local conditions are then universally applicable.
90PSI for 28mm tyres sounds pretty brutal, especially for rough terrain.
My 28mm Grand Sport Races measure ~30mm on the 17mm internal rim width Fulcrum Racing77DB wheels on my Cube. Total weight of me, bike plus bits I'm carrying is ~90Kg, I run the front tyre at ~65PSI.
Yet to fit the back (still using the 25mm variant), but I would be using ~80-85PSI for the 28mm, using ~95PSI on the 25mm.
Road quality in the South Downs varies a lot, some lanes have gravel and pot holes.
Maybe your total weight when out riding is different, maybe your roads are rough but not as rough as mine, maybe you would get more grip (and slightly more rolling resistance) from lowering pressures a little... Especially on the front.================
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HaydenM wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
I think you are lying about your lawsuit threat. I strongly suspect your pants are on fire also.
It’s not difficult to understand ( for most people with average intelligence) find a friend who deals with defamation cases, tell them you have precedence, they will quite happily deal with it for the fees they get. Beaks and lawyers love precedence, they don’t have to do anything, other than reference the previous case.0 -
NitrousOxide wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
There seem to be loads of people that assume what's correct for their local conditions are then universally applicable.
90PSI for 28mm tyres sounds pretty brutal, especially for rough terrain.
My 28mm Grand Sport Races measure ~30mm on the 17mm internal rim width Fulcrum Racing77DB wheels on my Cube. Total weight of me, bike plus bits I'm carrying is ~90Kg, I run the front tyre at ~65PSI.
Yet to fit the back (still using the 25mm variant), but I would be using ~80-85PSI for the 28mm, using ~95PSI on the 25mm.
Road quality in the South Downs varies a lot, some lanes have gravel and pot holes.
Maybe your total weight when out riding is different, maybe your roads are rough but not as rough as mine, maybe you would get more grip (and slightly more rolling resistance) from lowering pressures a little... Especially on the front.
110 psi is brutal in a 28mm tyre. The Tannus airless 28s I use, have a ‘virtual pressure’ of 110 psi, it takes a bit of getting used to, but so find it’s worth it, if the majority of the Ride is in the dark, and it’s cold, because sorting punctures out in the dark and cold, is a massive ball ache.0 -
Milemuncher1 wrote:NitrousOxide wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
There seem to be loads of people that assume what's correct for their local conditions are then universally applicable.
90PSI for 28mm tyres sounds pretty brutal, especially for rough terrain.
My 28mm Grand Sport Races measure ~30mm on the 17mm internal rim width Fulcrum Racing77DB wheels on my Cube. Total weight of me, bike plus bits I'm carrying is ~90Kg, I run the front tyre at ~65PSI.
Yet to fit the back (still using the 25mm variant), but I would be using ~80-85PSI for the 28mm, using ~95PSI on the 25mm.
Road quality in the South Downs varies a lot, some lanes have gravel and pot holes.
Maybe your total weight when out riding is different, maybe your roads are rough but not as rough as mine, maybe you would get more grip (and slightly more rolling resistance) from lowering pressures a little... Especially on the front.
110 psi is brutal in a 28mm tyre.
Good job nobody mentioned that then...0 -
Milemuncher1 wrote:HaydenM wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
I think you are lying about your lawsuit threat. I strongly suspect your pants are on fire also.
It’s not difficult to understand ( for most people with average intelligence) find a friend who deals with defamation cases, tell them you have precedence, they will quite happily deal with it for the fees they get. Beaks and lawyers love precedence, they don’t have to do anything, other than reference the previous case.
Do you mean precedents?0 -
He doesn't know what he means - the clown just likes mouthing-off on the internet...0
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Milemuncher1 wrote:HaydenM wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
I think you are lying about your lawsuit threat. I strongly suspect your pants are on fire also.
It’s not difficult to understand ( for most people with average intelligence) find a friend who deals with defamation cases, tell them you have precedence, they will quite happily deal with it for the fees they get. Beaks and lawyers love precedence, they don’t have to do anything, other than reference the previous case.
Get on with your lawsuit then. We'll look forward to hearing how you get on.0 -
Simon Masterson wrote:Exactly, for the most part, grand tour level riders spend a lot of their racing (and training) time on very good road surfaces, and therefore don't need to choose their tyre pressures to accommodate poor road surfaces nearly as much as the rest of us do, but then again many continental roads are much better kept than those in the UK anyway.
No not exactly. The Grand tour riders that live in my area spend most of their time riding the same sort of roads as I do. Some of those roads have been ridden in TdF (2014) and they are nothing special. The Tour of Britain roads are the same. In fact the roads on the continent ain't all they are made out to be either. They have their issues over there just not as many. And I'm imagining that Froome and others ride on much worse roads than I do a lot of the time in Africa.
Much of the amateur racing in the UK is off of public roads and tends to be a much better surface.
I think a lot of people are being duped into thinking that wider tyres are better by manufacturers trying to sell cheap nylon tyres at over inflated (pun intended) prices."You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
Charlie Potatoes wrote:Simon Masterson wrote:Exactly, for the most part, grand tour level riders spend a lot of their racing (and training) time on very good road surfaces, and therefore don't need to choose their tyre pressures to accommodate poor road surfaces nearly as much as the rest of us do, but then again many continental roads are much better kept than those in the UK anyway.No not exactly. The Grand tour riders that live in my area spend most of their time riding the same sort of roads as I do.
I don't know where your area is, but if it's in the UK then it represents a small percentage of world tour level riders.Some of those roads have been ridden in TdF (2014) and they are nothing special.
You may as well include the cobbles to support your argument - for the mostpart, the TdF is held on very good road surfaces, some of which are resurfaced for the event.In fact the roads on the continent ain't all they are made out to be either. They have their issues over there just not as many.
Of course, but there are large areas of France, Italy, Spain, Luxembourg etc, in which professional cyclists live, train and race for much of the year, which have very good roads.And I'm imagining that Froome and others ride on much worse roads than I do a lot of the time in Africa.
Well, Froome resides in Monaco, and does a few weeks of training in Mallorca as well.Much of the amateur racing in the UK is off of public roads and tends to be a much better surface.
Some of it is, yes, if you're talking about road racing - but a lot of it [road racing] isn't. TTs on the other hand, hardly any races on closed circuits.
That world tour level professional riders get to ride on very good quality road surfaces a lot is a very reasonable point to make as it is, but in the context of this thread, it's reasonable to assume it to be a factor in (relatively high) tyre pressure choice.I think a lot of people are being duped into thinking that wider tyres are better by manufacturers trying to sell cheap nylon tyres at over inflated (pun intended) prices.
I would agree - given that the marketing usually suggests that wider tyres will be much better regardless of the rest of the system. I'll be sticking to my 20mm tubs for now.0 -
As normal it depends what the roads you ride on are like, how much you weight and what your budget is.
I use 25mm tread/ 28mm case Roubaix pros as you get the cushioning without the drag which is useful when riding in the wet when you can't see the holes in the road as well.
Like most people I am not a pro so what they get up to is meaningless for me 0 -
Milemuncher1 wrote:HaydenM wrote:ZMC888 wrote:I don't get the desperation to run wider tires and the need to run lower pressure on every occasion. You obviously need to match the road surface(s) to your weight and tyre. In UK I run 28mm with 90psi, as the roads are pretty rough and often surface dressed. In Europe and Asia I run 25mm and 100-110psi as the roads tend to be smoother.
Being a UK based forum have you not answered your own question?Milemuncher1 wrote:I can’t get any pics uploaded until flickr stops being shite, but I’d be careful about calling me a “liar” on a public forum, As I’m sure the site admin don’t want the hassle of a defamation lawsuit, given the massive ball ache that involves. Even though it’s a shoe in for a nice pay day for me.
I think you are lying about your lawsuit threat. I strongly suspect your pants are on fire also.
It’s not difficult to understand ( for most people with average intelligence) find a friend who deals with defamation cases, tell them you have precedence, they will quite happily deal with it for the fees they get. Beaks and lawyers love precedence, they don’t have to do anything, other than reference the previous case.
It's not hard to understand, even for us mere mortals with below average intelligence. What is hard to understand is why you would be so immensely childish, especially given that you have clearly just misread what was actually being said at the time? And also why you think you would win a lawsuit even if you could find friends, which is the second point at which I suspect you to be a liar liar pants on fire.
Edit for the hard of thinking/any lawyers which happen to be perusing the forum: the second part there is a joke, he probably has lots of friends0
