Interactive or manual resistance trainer

ashtons99

I've gone through all the pages on this section of the forum but can't really find the answer.
I'm sort of on the edge of plunging into the smart trainer thing but one major difference is holding me back. Unless I'm wrong there seems to be 2 distinct differences, smart trainers that receive feedback from zwift or whatever and adjust the restance and the smart trainers, or maybe not so smart trainers that just rely on the rider to set resistance either on the turbo or with the gears.

My original perception was that all smart trainers were software controlled resistance.

So what are the advantages/disadvantages of these 2 means of resistance control, I quite fancied one if the Elite Muin B+ but then read there is no remote control.

Any advice would be helpful, not particularly on which trainer to buy but on the merits or not of remote controlled resistance

dannbodge

Manual resistance control (by remote or cable etc) will be much cheaper and will have very rough changes is resistance (eg jumps up in 50w between resistance 1 and 2)

No resistance control (Elite Muin etc) are fluid resistance and have the same set resistance but changes with speed/gears.

Auto resistance - controlled by software and can be fine tuned to give set gradients, wattages etc and are much smoother to change but will be the more expensive

(or at least this is my interpretation of them)

For me, I had a non smart manual resistance and didn't particularly like it, so went for the full smart and auto resistance trainer as I wanted the full experience.

StillGoing

ashtons99 wrote:

I've gone through all the pages on this section of the forum but can't really find the answer.
I'm sort of on the edge of plunging into the smart trainer thing but one major difference is holding me back. Unless I'm wrong there seems to be 2 distinct differences, smart trainers that receive feedback from zwift or whatever and adjust the restance and the smart trainers, or maybe not so smart trainers that just rely on the rider to set resistance either on the turbo or with the gears.

My original perception was that all smart trainers were software controlled resistance.

So what are the advantages/disadvantages of these 2 means of resistance control, I quite fancied one if the Elite Muin B+ but then read there is no remote control.

Any advice would be helpful, not particularly on which trainer to buy but on the merits or not of remote controlled resistance

Of the two types of smart trainer, there are those that have auto resistance and ERG mode and those that will communicate with programs, but can't be controlled by the program, and require the user to change resistance themselves. Auto resistance trainers come in wheel on and wheel off (direct drive) variations and are usually magnetic resistance. The second type also come as either wheel on or direct drive variants. The best of these in my opinion, are fluid resistance trainers. Using the gears to change resistance hasn't been a problem for me and with the inbuilt speed, cadence and power meter of the Kura, which is within +/-1% accuracy, you get accurate data shown on screen in training programs. Trouble with the Kura though, is Elite have also introduced the Direto around a similar price point. The Direto though is magnetic resistance rather than fluid, but it does have ERG mode and auto resistance for those that want it.

https://youtu.be/bA6iOQsCNzk

ashtons99

Thanks for the info guys. So with a trainer that doesn’t have ERG if you are on zwift for example you could ride the whole course in one gear with no feedback in terms of terrrain. With ERG if you hit a hill then the resistance will increase and you will need to change gear as out on the road. If that is the case it seems like the ideal. What are the benefits in just having “Manual”resistance. It seems to defeat the object of having a smart trainer other than the feedback you get in terms of power, speed etc.

MiddleRinger

How do you plan on using your turbo?

If you have the money, get a full smart trainer. Even if you don't plan on using it with Zwift or whatever right away you might want to in the future. Sure you can change gears to simulate hills on the course (or ride the whole course in one gear like you say) but it's not the same experience.

ashtons99 wrote:

What are the benefits in just having “Manual”resistance.

Lower cost and arguably less to go wrong.

StillGoing

ashtons99 wrote:

Thanks for the info guys. So with a trainer that doesn’t have ERG if you are on zwift for example you could ride the whole course in one gear with no feedback in terms of terrrain. With ERG if you hit a hill then the resistance will increase and you will need to change gear as out on the road. If that is the case it seems like the ideal. What are the benefits in just having “Manual”resistance. It seems to defeat the object of having a smart trainer other than the feedback you get in terms of power, speed etc.

Not exactly correct. You will still get relative performance data. So if you stick in the one gear doing 130 watts or whatever, as the road rises, your speed will automatically adjust to the power you're putting out and your weight. If for your given power you're cruising along at 20mph on the flat, when the road rises, your speed will drop to a lower figure comparative to the gradient. To simulate the climb and to make your time up it less, you'd simply change gear or up your cadence to up the watts being put out.

joey54321

Go for a kurt kinetic or a top of the range smart trainer (Neo, Flux, Wahoo). Anything in between (imo) is likely a waste of money. If you haven't got a powermeter a KK + powermeter would be (again, imo) a much better investment than a top of the line turbo trainer as you can then also use it outside.

Kurt kinetic:
Fluid resistance (you use your gear to make it easier, harder)
No integration with Zwift/TR except virtual power
Basic and cheap
Great road like feel with heavy fly weight
rear whee driven (spare wheel with turbo tyre required)

Neo
Electronic, virtual flywheel for the 'best' road like feel.
Erg mode controlled by software to hold you to a given power (TR) and adapt to terrain (Zwift)
Expensive
Direct drive

Flux/Wahoo
Physical flywheel (though not as good as the KK)
Erg mode
Expensive
Direct drive

navrig2

joey54321 wrote:

Go for a kurt kinetic or a top of the range smart trainer (Neo, Flux, Wahoo). Anything in between (imo) is likely a waste of money.

My experience is you don't have to spend that much money on a Smart (ERG) trainer to get benefit. I hated my simple, resistance only turbo but in a fit of enthusiasm in January I bought a Tacx Vortex and using a tablet and a "spare" 32" TV set up a decent training are in the garage. I run TrainerRoad on the tablet (mounted on the bars) and various rock music concerts on YouTube on the TV. My attitude to turbo training has changed enormously. I've done more in 9 months than I did previously in 5+ years.

Total investment about £350 plus a TR subscription.

I offset that by cancelling my languishing gym membership.

StillGoing

Navrig2 wrote:

joey54321 wrote:

Go for a kurt kinetic or a top of the range smart trainer (Neo, Flux, Wahoo). Anything in between (imo) is likely a waste of money.

My experience is you don't have to spend that much money on a Smart (ERG) trainer to get benefit. I hated my simple, resistance only turbo but in a fit of enthusiasm in January I bought a Tacx Vortex and using a tablet and a "spare" 32" TV set up a decent training are in the garage. I run TrainerRoad on the tablet (mounted on the bars) and various rock music concerts on YouTube on the TV. My attitude to turbo training has changed enormously. I've done more in 9 months than I did previously in 5+ years.

Total investment about £350 plus a TR subscription.

I offset that by cancelling my languishing gym membership.

Fully agree. The quoted Neo and Wahoo are ridiculous prices for what they do. There's plenty of decent turbos out there for much less money than the examples given with a choice of wheel on or direct mount. Christ, the Elite Direto is taking the mantle of number 1 choice at the moment when it comes down to price and function, at a fraction of the cost of the Wahoo Kickr, Elite Drivo and Tacx Neo.

ashtons99

I’ve done quite a bit more reading and talking to some of the guys I’ve been riding with. This smart turbo thing seems huge at the moment but most seem to favour the erg type of turbo.
In respect of what I’m going to use it for, I was just thinking something which will get me on it and keep me interested. I’ve had rollers and a conventional stand alone turbo before and run out of enthusiasm for both.

joey54321

I was basing my recommendation on levels of inertia, basically how nice and realistic it is to ride as, for me, this impacts both the fitness I can translate out on to the road (which is why I train) and my enjoyment.


If you are using TR why do you even need a smart trainer? Erg mode is oK but (again, ime) not amazing on either the wahoo or the neo and I actually prefer using my gears as it gives me more control. If I am feeling good I can push it, if I want to change my cadence I just change gear just like I would on the road. You can pick up a second hand KK for ~£100-150 and they are bombproof. So what have you got for your extra £200?


Edit: I have a Neo and paid about £50 more than the Elite Directo is.

daniel_b

Interactive for me, all day long - tried the non interactive, and for me ERG wins the day hands down, especially paired with something like TR. Suspect if it was up to me to keep at 105% of FTP for 1 minute, I would bail and not manage it, so much better (for me personally) if the trainer forces me to do it, as I am a stickler for completing workouts, therefore the job does get done.

joey54321 wrote:

Edit: I have a Neo and paid about £50 more than the Elite Directo is.

Likewise and it's one of the best purchases I have ever made.
Alas I think those days (Only 6 months or less ago) seem to be gone, with the devaluation of the pound, and everyone seems to have jacked their prices back up - unless this is just because perhaps Turbo purchasing goes up hugely now with winter approaching?
I've bought my Vortex in July 2016, and my Neo in April thiss year.
Maybe they will drop again in the new year - not sure I can see them anywhere less than 4 figures when I looked recently.
Amazon, Wiggle and CRC have all had them for circa £850 over the summer.

navrig2

I reckon it boils down to psychology and motivation. If you have mastered turbo training without the ERG function then don't get ERG. If you have tried but not been able to sustain turbo training, like me, the ERG trainer with the integrated app makes the difference.

For me doing 3 one hour sessions a week (plus the occasional 30 minutes when the weather is crap) would have been impossible without the ERG.

StillGoing

Daniel B wrote:

Interactive for me, all day long - tried the non interactive, and for me ERG wins the day hands down, especially paired with something like TR. Suspect if it was up to me to keep at 105% of FTP for 1 minute, I would bail and not manage it, so much better (for me personally) if the trainer forces me to do it, as I am a stickler for completing workouts, therefore the job does get done.

joey54321 wrote:

Edit: I have a Neo and paid about £50 more than the Elite Directo is.

Likewise and it's one of the best purchases I have ever made.
Alas I think those days (Only 6 months or less ago) seem to be gone, with the devaluation of the pound, and everyone seems to have jacked their prices back up - unless this is just because perhaps Turbo purchasing goes up hugely now with winter approaching?
I've bought my Vortex in July 2016, and my Neo in April thiss year.
Maybe they will drop again in the new year - not sure I can see them anywhere less than 4 figures when I looked recently.
Amazon, Wiggle and CRC have all had them for circa £850 over the summer.

Never seen the Neo for less than £1,000 and currently £1,096 from Rose is the best. The Direto best price is £580, that's a mighty difference in price.

daniel_b

The Neo was £850ish over long periods on Amazon.co.uk, and possibly as a result Wiggle and CRC had stock at the same price.

Add in CRC discount from BC onto that, or employee discount with Evans and a price match, and you could have easily been looking at £770\£750.

I kept getting worried it was going to go back up permanently, and chickened out (At the time it was only Amazon selling periodically for that price), and ordered for £865 from Amazon - had I held off I would have saved money, but by then I had already several months of good solid use out of it, so it's swings and roundabouts.

StillGoing

Well BC discount would equally apply to any trainer, so taking your first and no longer available price from Amazon of £850, that is still £270 more expensive than the Direto. I could do a lot with £270.

joey54321

philthy3 wrote:

Well BC discount would equally apply to any trainer, so taking your first and no longer available price from Amazon of £850, that is still £270 more expensive than the Direto. I could do a lot with £270.

Then buy a KK and have double that you could do a lot with.

daniel_b

philthy3 wrote:

Well BC discount would equally apply to any trainer, so taking your first and no longer available price from Amazon of £850, that is still £270 more expensive than the Direto. I could do a lot with £270.

Oh no I don't doubt that for a second, I was just stating what the field of play was like earlier in the year.
Also the Direto did not exist then.
BC Discount would also only apply to every trainer that CRC or Halfords stocked - and CRC price match does not work in the usual way either.

I initially was going to go for the Flux (I also don't think CRC sold this at the time), but the raft of reliability issues persuaded me to go for the Neo, expecially as the Flux was not heavily discounted at the time, and the Neo was, so the price differential was a lot less than it is now.
I ummed and arred about it for a long time, and decided it was worth the additional outlay for me.

I almost went for the Elite Drivo, as I could have bought that for a bit less, but am pleased I went with the Neo in the end.

Had the Direto existed at the time, I may well have gonne that route.

StillGoing

joey54321 wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

Well BC discount would equally apply to any trainer, so taking your first and no longer available price from Amazon of £850, that is still £270 more expensive than the Direto. I could do a lot with £270.

Then buy a KK and have double that you could do a lot with.

Don't need to; I went for the Elite Kura fluid with no ERG mode and very happy I am.

daniel_b

Just for general info, on the Tacx Neo FB page a chap (Neil Riley) who lives in West Sussex has just posted up a warranty replacement that he has used twice, that he only wants £500 for!

Says he will post if the buyer arranges a courier too.

Can't imagine it will hang around for long at that price.

phreak

philthy3 wrote:

ashtons99 wrote:

Thanks for the info guys. So with a trainer that doesn’t have ERG if you are on zwift for example you could ride the whole course in one gear with no feedback in terms of terrrain. With ERG if you hit a hill then the resistance will increase and you will need to change gear as out on the road. If that is the case it seems like the ideal. What are the benefits in just having “Manual”resistance. It seems to defeat the object of having a smart trainer other than the feedback you get in terms of power, speed etc.

Not exactly correct. You will still get relative performance data. So if you stick in the one gear doing 130 watts or whatever, as the road rises, your speed will automatically adjust to the power you're putting out and your weight. If for your given power you're cruising along at 20mph on the flat, when the road rises, your speed will drop to a lower figure comparative to the gradient. To simulate the climb and to make your time up it less, you'd simply change gear or up your cadence to up the watts being put out.

That's very much how I train tbh. If I'm doing a workout that requires a certain power for a certain timeframe, the last thing I'd want to do is worry about constant gear changes that aren't to do with my power requirements but the 'terrain' I'm apparently on. Zwift et al are good for occupying your mind and keeping training interesting, but the 'smart' aspect makes structured training harder imo.

mamba80

Do you need the e-training app for the Direto? for calibration or f/w upgrades as per earlier elite trainers or for any other reason?