decent do it all bike

andyh01

Hi.
Long story but still looking for a replacement bike mainly for a relatively short (6 miles each way) daily commute bike, as well as family rides and maybe evening/w/e training ride and possible sportive - nothing too heavy. Currently have a Trek 2.1 been looking at titanium but before I spend that much, I was wondering if any cheaper alternatives are available that are close to my ideal spec.

I don't want carbon not robust enough for my needs and want to be able to tow n pannier rack . I wouldn't mind a half decent Alu frame that can take fat tiers - mainly so I can fit snow stud tires smallest of which are 35mm and full guards as well as clearance for mud/crap hydraulic disc brakes and at least 105 nut would prefer 8000 series uletgra and decent wheels. I would also prefer 2x rather than 1x, these rule out the boardmans.

The lower specced ones seem to have max tire clearance of 28mm with guards, 1x and mechanical disc brakes and group set lower than 105.

I've not yet managed to find a decent specced aluminum frame full bike or frame to build up. The only one that seems to take fat tires and decent specc is the Mason Bokeh Ultegra Hydro 700c but again it's just over £3000, I would rather spend the extra and get the custom Ti bike. I don't really want pay price of full bike to then strip it down try and sell bits off it and re build seems inefficient.

Then again is it worth putting a £800+ groupset and £400+ hand built wheels on a cheap alu frame?

Also are ceramic barrings in the bb and hubs worth the extra? Are they more durable then say ss and is it just the less drag you get with ceramic then ss?
Thanks Andy

williamac

Andy

Have you thought about a cross bike? I have an ali Rose Pro cross bike that I use as my winter bike. Takes large tyres (can configure unto 38 when buying but think it will take larger tyres), hydro brakes and Ultegra along with mudguards. Am sure there are similar at Canyon etc as these may fit your needs. Fairly light as well.

Beauty of Rose is that they offer a more configurable build than Canyon for similar prices.

No noticeable/significant difference in speed etc and regularly swap PB's on Strava between this and my better bike (a Kinesis GF Ti)

William

shortfall

Dolan do a great aluminium all rounder with mudguard bosses and space for 32mm tyres that comes in well under a grand. https://www.dolan-bikes.com/road/road-b ... inium.html
That'll leave you loads of cash from your budget to buy some decent winter wheels and tyres and some for racing on. The jury's out on whether ceramic bearings last longer than good quality steel ones but one thing's for sure, despite everything you might have read about them spinning forever, there's no real world performance advantage and they cost about ten times more than the steel ones that already last many thousands of miles if properly cared for.

cougie

Do you have secure parking at work ? If not then I'd not spend a huge amount. No benefit of ceramics for your requirements. If you were a racing snake and everything was top spec then maybe worth a punt. But on a do it all bike ? Pointless.

I'm sure there's plenty of cross gravel Bor adventure bieks that fit the bill ?

slowbike

If you’re after a do-it-all then you may want to consider a second wheel set - you can set each up with the gearing and tyre choice more suited to your requirements.
I went for a spec tricross- it’s not the best by any means and I was a little annoyed that they changed the forks so they had no mudguard Mount point - but I’ve sorted it out now. The only downside really is that I didn’t get disc brakes - but then it wouldn’t have been compatible with my road bike wheels.

alan_sherman

Cube NuRoad EXC on the main reviews page today.
That Cube NuRoad EXC has an Supernova E3 LED hub dynamo setup. I think threaded BB, and the fork mudguard mounts are in the right place for once.

It looks to be a great all-rounder (commute, clubrun, light tour) bike. I'd change the stem though....
I'd like to see either a sora or tiagra equipped version (including lights, guard and racks) come in under a grand. A 9 speed chain lasts a lot longer so less aggro.

Interesting seeing Boardman's winter trainer effort, pinnacle's dolomite limited, and now this. Real road bikes for normal use instead of race bikes?

andyh01

Thanks guys, Yes considered cross bikes but concerned around gearing for on road which 95% it will be and the higher bb. Also the higher spec ones are more racing so max tire is around 32 and no mounts for guards. That Rose pro cross just about has most of my wish list, whats the tire width with guards? Just thinking would it take snow stud tires about 35mm with guards do you know? I would also prefer using LBS rather than mail order to ensure get right size and fitting as well as if an problems be easier to sort through LBS than online.

Re parking at work I believe so, but new job that I've not started yet so not too sure.

RE ceramic bearings thought that case so will just stick with std ss

mcstumpy

Btwin Triban 540 (or 520)? Pretty light, excellent bang for buck, and my 540 is now fitted with 35mm tyres (although doubt I’d get mud guards on). Can buy in flat bar or drop bar format as suits. I’ve got this set up now as my do it all bike.

Matty2B

Very similar discussion and lots of options in this thread I started a few weeks ago...

viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13084454

Dolan RDX, Ribble CGR and the Cube NuRoad variants all look worth investigating for you...

src1

How about a Kinesis Tripster AT? I think it meets all your requirements.

williamac

AndyH01 wrote:

Thanks guys, Yes considered cross bikes but concerned around gearing for on road which 95% it will be and the higher bb. Also the higher spec ones are more racing so max tire is around 32 and no mounts for guards. That Rose pro cross just about has most of my wish list, whats the tire width with guards? Just thinking would it take snow stud tires about 35mm with guards do you know? I would also prefer using LBS rather than mail order to ensure get right size and fitting as well as if an problems be easier to sort through LBS than online.

Re parking at work I believe so, but new job that I've not started yet so not too sure.

RE ceramic bearings thought that case so will just stick with std ss

Andy

Am not sure about the exact size of tyre for the guards, but I have on SKS Blumels which appear to come in different sizes to take larger tyres - I have on 28mm and there is plenty of room for much larger tyres. Maybe worthwhile popping a question over to Rose to see what the max width is. Re my bike, I have on a standard compact with a 12-32 cassette which is more than sufficient for road use and have been able to get a couple of top 10's in Strava (for popular flat segments >2000 times) so should be more than sufficient. I've not had any issues but knew my measurements for a previous fit and also have an inducement mechanic who services lots of my groups bikes

William

andyh01

That Cube looks even better. The only issue is I have it's not a full 105 groupset. My main issue is the non series brakes. My current bike was advertised as 105 except the crank is FSA and brakes are Trektro with swiss stop pads and I've never really been happy with them.
Personally I'd prefer a full 105 or Ulterga models but guess this would push price up to over 2k.

Yes I looked at the tripster and Genesis; if I went this route, I'd go for a Titanium frame, probably an Enigma Escape and custom spec - Envey fork and bars with Chris King headset, BB and Hubs with hand built wheels and full Ultegra but price be just under £5k and for my needs, seems a bit ott, esp when paid £1k for the family car / wife's commuter. Or compared to a bus pass at £4K for bike v £780 year bus pass would take five yrs to break even.

Guess case I either spend more and get my "dream" bike n use it more as enjoy it, or save by lowering spec and upgrade as and when needed/justifiable, as long as not false economy of buying cheap. buying twice type thing and probably just use it for the commute and occasional family ride.

williamac

Andy

Had a look today at clearance. With 28mm Conti GP4000 there is around 10mm each side of tyre to fork and 10mm clearance to the mudguard so can't see why you couldn't get a 35mm tyre on there with ease. Similar clearances for rear wheel as well

William

btiratsoo

Andy, I've just been through this exact issue. Test ride a Bokeh. You will be pleasantly surprised. I have mine set up with all the bits off my old S-Works Tarmac Disc (Dura-Ace Di2 hydro) and its is mint with a set of Hope 20Five wheels and G-One tubeless tyres (38mm). It is outstandingly good fun to ride pretty much anywhere! I use it for absolutely everything - gravel, road, single track etc etc. I built mine up from a frameset but the 105 Hydro is a real tidy option, the Ultra even more so. Give Dom a call and have a chat and try and get down for a test ride, I don't think you will regret it.

Ben

andyh01

Thanks btiratsoo. I'm just not convinced the Boken does it for me £3k for an Alu frame - I appreciate the quality - just seen they're in late stages of bringing out a Ti frame. Depending on price and spec.

I'm also closer to J.Laverack and Enigma stockist - I guess how important is it to "test" ride ensuring right fit opposed to guessing and buying online. If brought a frame online have more choice but then again could be an expensive £4k+ mistake if didn't fit or feel right.

btiratsoo

I had exactly the same earrings of caution as I was getting rid of a ridiculously priced carbon bike to buy an expensive alloy frame. What did it for me in regards to the frame was:
- Only ally frame with internal Di2 routing and hydro hose routing - since having Di2 I'm no longer a fan of external routing on frames (personal point I know but a key point to my decision)
- Sheer number of points to mount things - mudguards, panniers, racks, bags, lights, bottles etc
- Ability to fit whatever size wheel/ tyre combo I wanted and still retain the use of mudguards within reason
- Threaded bottom bracket
- What do I actually do with a bike? I ride crummy lanes and back roads, cycle paths, South Downs Way, tow paths, singletrack, no racing, no TTs

It took me a while to see past just the figures you know. Blah blah blah expensive for an ally frame, is it worth it etc etc etc. If you want a true do it all bike, that really means it, then I can't recommend it enough. I had to look through the stigma of pricing and think about what I REALLY wanted out of a bike, for me Bokeh did it.

I looked at Kinesis (tripster, 4Seasons), Genesis (Equilibrium disc, Datum etc), Enigma (Whole range as dealer just down the road), Strael, Bowman (Layhams disc) Cannondale (Slate, Synapse, CAAD disc), Specialized (Diverge, Roubaix) and the only one that ticked all my points was the Bokeh and they sound similar to the points you raised. All I'm saying is don't discount them on the fact it is "ONLY" an ally frame. I am now a big fan as you might be able to tell.

Ben

alan_sherman

The Bokeh is still a lot for an alloy frame bike though! Lots of other options available that are cheaper.

Do you really need to spend as much as you are planning? You could spend a lot less and have a fun, do it all bike. I guess weight is a concern too.

Charge plug 2017 range - very fat tyres
Plane X full monty - buy frame only and build up
Pinnacle arkose - possibly too slow / stable steering and weighty
Mango Point AR - probably frame up build
Boardman but add a front derailluer?
Boardman CXR 9.2 is carbon but ticks boxes
Dolan
Ribble GCR
orro terra gravel road SE https://www.orrobikes.com/bikes/road/te ... el-road-se
Whyte Suffolk

andyh01

The Bokeh is still a lot for an alloy frame bike though!- My take is I understand why, considering hand made in small numbers with R&D & tooling costs etc vs mass production of established big manufacturers = cheaper production costs & high n0 of distributors all competing = pile high sell at discount, whether that means quality is poorer is different matter. My main concern with the Boken is 1x which OK if I spoke to them they may be able to spec with 2x. More so, how it stands up over time and how weather durability it is? Same can be said about any Alu/Carbon frame. They may look nice in show room with nice hand painted frame but once it's been dropped/knocked and scrapped a few times or even stone chips, will the paint start to flake exposing the Alu underneath and then start oxidizing/rusting/look worn? Whereas with Steel/Ti it'll look like new and have no paint chips to worry about - at least on the frame anyway.

Do you really need to spend as much as you are planning? - I'd prefer not too but I'm almost convinced for the above reason Ti is the way to go with at least 105 (on current bike and relatively happy with it) or Ultegra group-set and full hydro disc brakes. As spending a fair bit on a bike, I'm not confident enough to take the risk and buy online and be stuck with the wrong size/geometry or simply don't like the feel/looks, so I'd rather go through LBS for their advice, which then does limit the options somewhat to either the Enigma or Laverick for Ti.

By the time I finished building up on Alu frame, with similar spec then costs aren't that different probably £1k difference if that and I would always then think I wish I'd gone for something different, for the bit extra. With a full off peg shelf bike on Alu frame, then the compromise is either the group set or wheels, to hit the set price point, like the Caad slate £2k for the Ultegra but it's not a full ultegra and no mounts for rack or fenders.

On a 1x is it just a simple case of sticking a front mec on it? Wouldn't the levers and chain also need to be replaced? Then upgrade wheels...

btiratsoo

Paint finish doesn't matter what material it is on, simply down to the quality of the paint job. A shit paint job on an alloy frame is the same as a shit paint job on a steel/ ti/ carbon frame. Steel will corrode as well as aluminium if left out in the elements by paint being chipped off.

Bokeh comes as 2 x in 105 or Ultegra and 1 x in SRAM.

Why do you want titanium? Is it because someone has told you it is amazing wonder material? Can still be damaged and is a cunt to repair.

You have to decide what frame material you want to go for before we can give you any advice on bikes of which you have been inundated with recommendations so far.

One thing you have said and should maintain is making sure you test ride whatever frames/ bikes you decide on.

Ben

andyh01

My reasoning for Ti is it's strength to weight ratio, it can be dropped and abused and won't damage the structural internal integrity. Scratches can be just buffed out ie no paint to chip. It's also something different to what I would usually go for ie Alu. I've already had a quick blast on the Enigma and the J.ack, nothing really in it one external the other internal cabling.
Would the standard Enigma Escape full bike at £4k be £900 better then the Bohken - no probably not, just different. Would the frame last any longer? luck of draw I guess.
As you say I'd need to look at it in closer detail and test ride it to make a comparison.

In terms of frame material I guess it's either Alu or Ti as carbon too brittle and be worried about internal cracking, I also tow a kids trailer and want fit rack and guards. Steel is similar to Ti in terms of fatigue but weighs/costs more then Ti (I think) and Ti seems a more modem material - although I have never ridden Steel. So I guess it's more about what frames I can source through local LBS than material per-se but leaning more towards Ti

btiratsoo

Type of steel depends on cost - mild steel generally cheap, high carbon stainless steel expensive. Look at steel frames e.g Genesis - Equilibrium steel much cheaper than Equilibrium Titanium, cheap compared to Titanium. Custom fitted, custom geometry steel frames with a mix of tubes, as expensive as an off the shelf Titanium frame. Titanium generally more expensive as it is much harder to work with than steel or ally or carbon.

Titanium is a great material, but whether it is the "super material" I assume you think it is, is debatable. All frame materials have their advantages and disadvantages. Unpainted Ti can be damaged just as badly as unpainted steel - scratches buff out of any unpainted, un-laquered metal with the right polishing compound.

Sounds like you are set on Titanium. Test ride the Ti bikes you like and see which one takes your fancy.

darkhairedlord

Something like a Venge should do the job. buy a second wheelset and it'll be good for anything.

btiratsoo

darkhairedlord wrote:

Something like a Venge should do the job. buy a second wheelset and it'll be good for anything.

What he said. Saves a lot of fucking about. At least there won't be any problems with paint chipping and exposing bare aluminium....

andyh01

Thanks Ben - No not decided definitely if going Ti and now realise it's available in 2x and gray rather than orange, I'm in discussions with Masons directly.

I think it is a toss between the Boken and Enigma. it's just getting head around a premium Alu frame Vs budget? Ti frame builders - is it just labor costs or is it quality of welds/build? I inquired to Mason re their Ti frames - frame alone is £3200 and full build around £5200.

Out of interest as you've looked at similar bikes to me, what made you go for the Bokeh over say the Enigma? Which colour and what set up did you go for? As cheaper than the Enigma I could get a second wheel-set for the Boken. I'm tempted to go for the 2x Ultegra with 650b wheels and large range cassette then get some 700cs with a tighter cassette

darkhairedlord

AndyH01 wrote:

Thanks Ben - No not decided definitely if going Ti and now realise it's available in 2x and gray rather than orange, I'm in discussions with Masons directly.

I think it is a toss between the Boken and Enigma. it's just getting head around a premium Alu frame Vs budget? Ti frame builders - is it just labor costs or is it quality of welds/build? I inquired to Mason re their Ti frames - frame alone is £3200 and full build around £5200.

Out of interest as you've looked at similar bikes to me, what made you go for the Bokeh over say the Enigma? Which colour and what set up did you go for? As cheaper than the Enigma I could get a second wheel-set for the Boken. I'm tempted to go for the 2x Ultegra with 650b wheels and large range cassette then get some 700cs with a tighter cassette

Bokeh just reminds me of bukahke, on that note alone, I'm out.

btiratsoo

Andy, titanium is a costly material and also very labour intensive to work with - hard to cut, difficult to weld, this all adds to the cost of building the frames. Welding is a skill in itself, to weld any material well you have to know what you are doing - aluminium and titanium possible even more so as the actual welding process differs slightly to steel due to the material. This is all reflected in the cost of producing a titanium frame. The reason custom frames are even more expensive is you are paying for the experience of the builder to get it right for you.

I built my Bokeh from a frameset and used all the parts from a custom built Specialised S-Works Tarmac disc. I hated the Tarmac for a long list of reasons. My build is Dura-Ace Di2 hydro (complete groupset bar a hope stainless BB) with Hope 20Five 700c wheels with 38mm tyres - Compass Barlow Pass or Schwalbe G-one - set up tubeless. It is fast and goes anywhere I point it within reason and grip of the tyres. The finishing kit is all Ritchey ally parts as carbon bits did not interest me in the slightest and having spent £200 on a set of carbon bars only to find the Ritchey £30 ally bars to be my favourite I wasn't interested in doing that again.

My reason for choosing the Bokeh over the Enigma - the sheer number of mounts (bottles, panniers/ racks, dynamo, mudguards etc), the fact that it is the only metal frame that can handle Di2 Hydro internal routing and the options to run 650b or 700c wheels. Simple. And the grey colour is fantastic.

My rear cassette is 11-28. I have no need for anything else.

Enigma's are fine frames but they didn't build one that I was interested in.

Darkhairedlord, for that reason, I'm in!

darkhairedlord

btiratsoo wrote:

Andy, titanium is a costly material and also very labour intensive to work with - hard to cut, difficult to weld, this all adds to the cost of building the frames. Welding is a skill in itself, to weld any material well you have to know what you are doing - aluminium and titanium possible even more so as the actual welding process differs slightly to steel due to the material. This is all reflected in the cost of producing a titanium frame. The reason custom frames are even more expensive is you are paying for the experience of the builder to get it right for you.

I built my Bokeh from a frameset and used all the parts from a custom built Specialised S-Works Tarmac disc. I hated the Tarmac for a long list of reasons. My build is Dura-Ace Di2 hydro (complete groupset bar a hope stainless BB) with Hope 20Five 700c wheels with 38mm tyres - Compass Barlow Pass or Schwalbe G-one - set up tubeless. It is fast and goes anywhere I point it within reason and grip of the tyres. The finishing kit is all Ritchey ally parts as carbon bits did not interest me in the slightest and having spent £200 on a set of carbon bars only to find the Ritchey £30 ally bars to be my favourite I wasn't interested in doing that again.

My reason for choosing the Bokeh over the Enigma - the sheer number of mounts (bottles, panniers/ racks, dynamo, mudguards etc), the fact that it is the only metal frame that can handle Di2 Hydro internal routing and the options to run 650b or 700c wheels. Simple. And the grey colour is fantastic.

My rear cassette is 11-28. I have no need for anything else.

Enigma's are fine frames but they didn't build one that I was interested in.

Darkhairedlord, for that reason, I'm in!

Just wipe the dribble off your cheek

btiratsoo

darkhairedlord wrote:

Just wipe the dribble off your cheek

I'm letting it dry

andyh01

Thanks Ben. The only mounts I can see see myself using is rear rack, guards and one possibly 2 water bottles. Not too fussed about Di2 but guess bit of future proofing (although could go E tap) Internal v external cabling on the T frames I looked at Enigma and Laverick I preferred the look of external mainly as the ports were quite far away to avoid being the welds and the Enigma can run either 650 or 700.

How did the ride quality/feel and frame build quality compare?

Do you ride mostly on the road then? Some reviews suggests it comes more into own off road then on?

I also can't decide whether go full build from Mason or frame-set and custom from there. I don't have any spares components to use and be looking at the 2x Ultegra group set but think I'd prefer some hand built wheels like DT swiss on Chris King Hubs and one reviewer also suggested the standard aero handlebars wern't to their taste.