Time for a new bike - Eddy Merckx EMX 525 v Cannondale Supersix evo hi mod

sam1176uk

Hi everyone
Time for a new bike to replace my Wilier Zero 9, I have narrowed it down to these two:
Supersix hi mod has sram etap and carbon rim brake wheelset.
Merckx 525 has Hydraulic disc Ultegra groupset and high end edco carbon wheelset. It is the Endurance geometry model.

Any thoughts on which is the better bike?

Thanks

imposter2.0

Neither is the 'better bike' IMO, I don't think anyone can answer that for you, tbh. Both very different frames, geometry and groupsets, so you probably need to get a better idea of what it is you want out of your riding before going too much further.

Matthewfalle

Neither - get a Basso Diamanté

https://www.cyclerepublic.com/basso-dia ... gKL__D_BwE

sam1176uk

Imposter wrote:

Neither is the 'better bike' IMO, I don't think anyone can answer that for you, tbh. Both very different frames, geometry and groupsets, so you probably need to get a better idea of what it is you want out of your riding before going too much further.

So what would each bike be more suitable for, in your opinion?

imposter2.0

sam1176uk wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Neither is the 'better bike' IMO, I don't think anyone can answer that for you, tbh. Both very different frames, geometry and groupsets, so you probably need to get a better idea of what it is you want out of your riding before going too much further.

So what would each bike be more suitable for, in your opinion?

Well, you already said the EMX was 'endurance' geo - and the Supersix is Cannondale's 'race oriented' range. But one has calipers and Etap, the other has mechanical shift and discs, so it's not quite as simple as that. It's difficult to superficially compare two bikes which are going to be both aimed at different audiences.

sam1176uk

Imposter wrote:

sam1176uk wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Neither is the 'better bike' IMO, I don't think anyone can answer that for you, tbh. Both very different frames, geometry and groupsets, so you probably need to get a better idea of what it is you want out of your riding before going too much further.

So what would each bike be more suitable for, in your opinion?

Well, you already said the EMX was 'endurance' geo - and the Supersix is Cannondale's 'race oriented' range. But one has calipers and Etap, the other has mechanical shift and discs, so it's not quite as simple as that. It's difficult to superficially compare two bikes which are going to be both aimed at different audiences.

I do 3 or 4 x 30mile spins per week, with a longer run at the weekend, around 50-60miles. I live in a hilly area with some steep climbs and descents. I don't race but performance is important to me.

w00dster

In agreement with Imposter, all depends on what you want out of the bikes.
My preference would be the Supersix, but that's based on me loving that frame and geometry. What you want from your riding may be completely different than other people so this makes a difference to what bike you purchase.

I normally have race oriented bikes but in the summer decided my days of racing are over and went with a disc brake, wide tyres and endurance geometry bike, this is awesome for club runs and steady training rides, but that decision stuck for all of 10 minutes and I'm now back to being in the market for a more "racey" frame and rim brakes for next year.

Is the Wilier going to be sold or is that going to be a Winter /bad weather bike? Is the new bike going to be used over the winter and how much use would it see? Not sure what tyre sizes you can get on the supersix, but in the winter I'd be wary about using it with the carbon wheels, my preference for the wetter months is a wider tyre and strong braking performance.

The Basso linked by Matthew is also an awesome bike by the way.

sam1176uk

The new bike won't really be used over the winter, but I'm in Scotland so it will be used lots in the wet (summer)!
The carbon rims on the cannondale worry me slightly for the steep descents around here, although I'd prefer the racy geometry. The basso is nice but over budget compared to these two.

shortfall

sam1176uk wrote:

The new bike won't really be used over the winter, but I'm in Scotland so it will be used lots in the wet (summer)!
The carbon rims on the cannondale worry me slightly for the steep descents around here, although I'd prefer the racy geometry. The basso is nice but over budget compared to these two.

I had a quick Google and all 3 were at a similar price point as far as I could tell. If I was spraying that kind of cash around I'd buy the Basso based on it's looks and rarity alone. You're not likely to see another one parked outside the cafe that's for sure. I'm sure they're all brilliant bikes in their own way but are they likely to be that much better than your Wilier? Why are you replacing that?

mfin

sam1176uk wrote:

The new bike won't really be used over the winter, but I'm in Scotland so it will be used lots in the wet (summer)!
The carbon rims on the cannondale worry me slightly for the steep descents around here, although I'd prefer the racy geometry. The basso is nice but over budget compared to these two.

Are you saying that because:

1) you like the sound of going fast
2) or, are you saying it because they have a size where all its measurements suit your dimensions and flexibility based on how your current bike fits (and you know that one fits properly)

If the answer is 1 then it is not worth basing any bike purchase on.
If the answer is 2 along with every part of it being understood, then great.

You should be buying based on 2, or at least making your shortlist because of it.

sam1176uk

I prefer the racy geometry as that's what I'd class the Wilier to have, it seems to fit well but I don't know enough about geometry to compare it to th merckx or Supersix.

Tiesetrotter

Carbon wheels in the wet are fine. Not as good as discs but perfectly usable.

I have an ancient set of Roval Alpinista's, the brake surface is like glass it is so polished. They stop just fine in the rain and they worked fine on the hot Majorca descents earlier this year. You just have to be more considered in your use of them.

Also carbon rims last a long time, but discs will obviously not wear your rims out. It really is swings and roundabouts. Pity you can't get the EMX525 in eTAP rim brakes then you'd have a rare bike with a very interesting group set. I personally have the mechanical Ultegra disc groupset and although the braking is sublime the design of the hoods is utter garbage. They are ugly, uncomfortable and the gear change is verrrrrrrrrry slow.

sam1176uk

Thanks, I can get the merckx with Ultegra di2 and rim brakes but don't really fancy di2.

mfin

sam1176uk wrote:

I prefer the racy geometry as that's what I'd class the Wilier to have, it seems to fit well but I don't know enough about geometry to compare it to th merckx or Supersix.

If you want help point us at the Wilier geometry chart for the right year and tell us the size you have, amount of spacers under the stem and stem length you have. That info would be a start. It should be relatively easy to see what will work or not work with the Merckx and SuperSix.

sam1176uk

Thanks I appreciate that, here's the link to my Wilier geometry - https://www.rutlandcycling.com/286574/p ... large.aspx
I have a size large, with 10mm spacers under the stem, and 110mm stem.

mfin

Well, I looked at the charts, here's the most relevant stuff, the Effective Seat Tube Length (ETT), Seat Tube Angle (STA) and Head Tube Length (HT) ...degs and cms

Your WILIER large
55.5 ETT 73.5 STA 15.4 HT

SUPERSIX 56
56.1 ETT 73.5 STA 15.5 HT

EMX 525 medium
55.7 ETT 73.1 STA 14.5 HT

EMX 525 large
56.9 ETT 72.7 STA 16.0 HT

...first glance shows the SuperSix looks like it could really work in a 56cm for you, so if you are edging towards that, it looks pretty good. You'd run it with an 11 stem and potentially be 6mm longer or a 10cm stem and be 4mm shorter (something always shifts a mm or two anyway, and you'll have different handlebars etc).

The EMX looks like it could be made to work, the STA is a touch shallower which will pull back that ETT a bit so it would feel a couple of mm shorter than the Wilier, and you'd need more spacers at the front than you have at the moment or you'd be in a more aggressive position. If you wanna be a touch less drawn out and lower it could work well.

The EMX in Large looks like you would be a touch more drawn out at first glance. It is 15mm longer, but again some of the 15mm is negated by the 0.8 deg slacker STA compared to your wilier, as a rough guess for someone fitting these kind of frames lets say 7mm is negated (as you'd have your saddle further forward on the rails to be the same distance behind the BB and it would actually only seem 8mm longer, so you'd pull that back by using a 10cm stem.

So... out of the EMXs you could go either way, if your current fit is bang on then the Large looks best for the EMX and you might have a little less in the way of spacers. The SuperSix looks good in a 56cm.

*Here comes the ASTERISK ...the tables do not have BB drop mentioned, so the HT issues could be affected.

**This is basic, working it out as I type it stuff, it will need checking, and I'm sure someone else will help by commenting too.

sam1176uk

Thank you for taking the time to do that, really appreciate it.
I can only assume my position on the Wilier is correct, it feels good.
The EMX has two model geometry charts - Performance or Endurance, do you know which one you used?

mfin

sam1176uk wrote:

Thank you for taking the time to do that, really appreciate it.
I can only assume my position on the Wilier is correct, it feels good.
The EMX has two model geometry charts - Performance or Endurance, do you know which one you used?

Ah, I forgot to say that I wasn't convinced I had the right chart, it wasn't obvious. Can you point me at the right charts and then I will work it out and confirm it all for you.

EDIT... Merckx aren't listing an EMX-525, just an EM-525, do you mean that... if so I THINK these are the tables for each (which I will re-do the workings out for now for the Endurance one)

mfin

Ok... ignore all the stuff I said before on the EMX.

For the EM-525 as per that chart...

EM 525 medium
55.1 ETT 73.5 STA 17.4 HT

EM 525 large
19.2 HT

...first thing to note is the Large is a waste of time, the HT will be too long.

...second thing to note is on the medium it is 4mm longer than your Wilier, same STA, but 2cm taller in the HT. So, first of all lets say it is only 1cm too tall as you could have no spacers instead of the 10mm you run already, so you'll be too high at the front. BUT you now have to look into the conical top cap on the headset, I don't know how tall the one is on your WIlier and how tall the one is on the Merckx, but is the Wilier one is 10mm shorter you could be about right. You can also get hold of very short ones. If your Wilier one is already short, then I doubt you'll have any way of getting low enough on that Medium Merckx.

Now... remember the bit I said about BB drop. If the BB drop of the Merckx for example happens to be 5mm more than on your Wilier, you will need to find that as well to get rid of on the front, which is gonna be unlikely. Conversely if the Merckx was 5mm less BB drop, then you can simply consider it's HT to be 5mm shorter already. If it had 10mm less BB drop then you'd be close already to slammed, with 10mm of it negated by the BB drop and the 10mm of spacer not used (providing the top caps were the same height).

Make sense? In other words, IF you want the Merckx and want to mimic your position, it's certainly not ruled out at all, but you'll want to check out more as there are factors that could swing it, definitely look at those top caps first...

Just spotted 69mm BB drop on the Merckx which is pretty normal, but can't find anything for the Wilier (the chances are it is pretty standard). Oh, the Supersix is about that too.

sam1176uk

So in the large the HT will be too long, meaning I'll be sitting far too upright?
Seems like the cannondale is the best fit, the only thing I was concerned about was carbon rim brakes on wet descents but I'll just need to hope they are ok.

mfin

sam1176uk wrote:

So in the large the HT will be too long, meaning I'll be sitting far too upright?
Seems like the cannondale is the best fit, the only thing I was concerned about was carbon rim brakes on wet descents but I'll just need to hope they are ok.

Yeah, in large it would be 38mm higher at the front, 28mm by the time you don't run a 10mm spacer (taking it the top caps are the same height). It is only 8mm longer so you'd run a 10cm stem not an 11cm and be within 2mm that way.

Being 28mm higher is a lot, hence it won't work and the medium is clearly the best size, if it works after looking into the other issues I mention.

As far as carbon wheels go, you don't have to have them, as you can see there are compromises which people pay for which become heightened when they are only buying them for the look of them. You can always run another set of wheels for when it's wet, a lot of people swap about their wheelsets. Are you building up the Supersix or does it come with carbon clinchers?

I will let others answer the carbon wheel issues as they will know more than me, I only use deep sections on a TT bike. I see no need for them unless you are trying to squeeze every last bit of speed out because you are racing.

sam1176uk

Yes I think I follow, the conical top cap in the Wilier is 1.5cm, not sure of the merckx, or the bb drop.
Merckx in a medium seems like a decent option then, (though I'd be nervous ordering a medium when I'm 183cm tall)with disc brakes and carbon rims. The cannondale comes with carbon rims, not deep section though.

mamil314

sam1176uk wrote:

Thanks, I can get the merckx with Ultegra di2 and rim brakes but don't really fancy di2.

You are heading the wrong way. Supersix with disc brakes is the answer

shortfall

What are the deficiencies in your Wilier that you're hoping to address in your new bike?

mfin

sam1176uk wrote:

Yes I think I follow, the conical top cap in the Wilier is 1.5cm, not sure of the merckx, or the bb drop.
Merckx in a medium seems like a decent option then, (though I'd be nervous ordering a medium when I'm 183cm tall)with disc brakes and carbon rims. The cannondale comes with carbon rims, not deep section though.

Now that you say the 1.5cm top cap on the Wilier, you'll have no problem getting one a lot less, like a 5mm one for the Merckx which would make it's HT effectively shorter by 10mm. I think it is a shame it isn't 5mm longer though.

Are you really set on that Merckx??

I can't tell how you've come down to those two bike choices.

sam1176uk

Thanks, I'm not dead set in the merckx but I do like it, I've still got a relatively open mind.

Tiesetrotter

I did have an EMX5 which I was very fond of. However Mr Merckx was meant to have a hand in the designs ........ which means very stiff and a very solid ride. I think the 525 had the same approach.