Urgent review looking at road laws for cyclists

fenix

Walls82 wrote:

Personally I think forget cycling infrastructure its too late to do anything meaningful and concentrate on educating people on safer driving and cycling. You can buy a bike on the ride to work scheme easily but there is no info on how to ride safely to work, my 5 year old son shoulder checks more than some of the people I come across on my commute to work!

It's never too late to look at infrastructure. They update roads all of the time.

kingstongraham

It's the word "Urgent" that annoys me. That's why a bit of whataboutery is entirely valid here.

kleinstroker

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

kingstongraham

kleinstroker wrote:

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

Define conflict.

jds_1981

kleinstroker wrote:

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

I think this is a bad idea. As previously stated is reasonable for pedestrians to cross the road, is even say it is reasonable to cross amongst cyclists and stop in the middle of the road as long as everyone is being sensible. Tweeting about self judged annoyances might just cause division between two vulnerable groups of people.
Okay with the odd tweet of people pushing Prams out without looking or really stupid stuff but otherwise very uncomfortable with that idea.

rich_e

jds_1981 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

I think this is a bad idea. As previously stated is reasonable for pedestrians to cross the road, is even say it is reasonable to cross amongst cyclists and stop in the middle of the road as long as everyone is being sensible. Tweeting about self judged annoyances might just cause division between two vulnerable groups of people.
Okay with the odd tweet of people pushing Prams out without looking or really stupid stuff but otherwise very uncomfortable with that idea.

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

It's something that's going to become even more relevant as the number of electric vehicles which are very quiet increase on the roads. A pedestrian is going to come off a lot worse vs a car than a bicycle.

N0bodyOfTheGoat

As part of a much wider urgent review into road use including typically 1000+Kg motor vehicles (compared to a typical 60+Kg adult rider and bike), I would very much be in favour of the UK introducing a "jay-walking" law.

A random BBC article on Jay walking from a decade ago...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6251431.stm

kingstongraham

Rich_E wrote:

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

It's something that's going to become even more relevant as the number of electric vehicles which are very quiet increase on the roads. A pedestrian is going to come off a lot worse vs a car than a bicycle.

Totally agree. The more electric cars the better. Pedestrians will have to look.

There is a push from some people to include a loudspeaker on electric cars to sound like an engine to help blind people, which seems to penalise everyone else.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/136 ... ian-safety

jds_1981

NitrousOxide wrote:

As part of a much wider urgent review into road use including typically 1000+Kg motor vehicles (compared to a typical 60+Kg adult rider and bike), I would very much be in favour of the UK introducing a "jay-walking" law.

A random BBC article on Jay walking from earlier this year...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/6251431.stm

*Ahem* start of the decade.

kleinstroker

KingstonGraham wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

Define conflict.

Stepping out in front of? Being in the way on the road or cycle path I would imagine

kleinstroker

jds_1981 wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Is it a good idea for somebody to start a new hashtag on twitter #pedestrianWatch or similar where cyclists could record the amount of times they come into conflict with pedestrians?
I honestly think other than cyclists, nobody realises just how often PEDs step out causing problems. It might go some way to providing a better picture of where problems are?

I think this is a bad idea. As previously stated is reasonable for pedestrians to cross the road, is even say it is reasonable to cross amongst cyclists and stop in the middle of the road as long as everyone is being sensible. Tweeting about self judged annoyances might just cause division between two vulnerable groups of people.
Okay with the odd tweet of people pushing Prams out without looking or really stupid stuff but otherwise very uncomfortable with that idea.

.

You might be right, but without a publicly available body of evidence, there will be nothing to stop the MPs and whomever else imposing what they see as right.
Nobody as yet records near misses I would imagine.

I am also very much in favour of a distracted walking law, not jaywalking per se but inattentive walking across roads

thistle_

Rich_E wrote:

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

Had one a couple of hours ago driving down a busy street. The road only goes right, but it's kinda a junction so I indicate anyway.
Pedestrians ahead see me coming at ~8 mph and stop. Pedestrian to the side looks straight at me then just walks out into the road in front of me anyway.
On the plus side the pedestrians who had seen me and stopped gave her a right dirty look for making them wait even longer to cross.

cooldad

My solution to idiot peds.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/death_race_2000/

kingstongraham

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

Rich_E wrote:

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

Had one a couple of hours ago driving down a busy street. The road only goes right, but it's kinda a junction so I indicate anyway.
Pedestrians ahead see me coming at ~8 mph and stop. Pedestrian to the side looks straight at me then just walks out into the road in front of me anyway.
On the plus side the pedestrians who had seen me and stopped gave her a right dirty look for making them wait even longer to cross.

Once all cars are self-driving, we can walk out like that in front of cars too.

TheBigBean

KingstonGraham wrote:

Rich_E wrote:

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

It's something that's going to become even more relevant as the number of electric vehicles which are very quiet increase on the roads. A pedestrian is going to come off a lot worse vs a car than a bicycle.

Totally agree. The more electric cars the better. Pedestrians will have to look.

There is a push from some people to include a loudspeaker on electric cars to sound like an engine to help blind people, which seems to penalise everyone else.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/136 ... ian-safety

These people usually look eventually, they just don't look when they first step off the curb, because they know that bit doesn't contain a car (by sound). Solution, as ever, is to not ride next to curb. It's a bit like the car door campaign - why are people riding that close to car doors?

kleinstroker

Happened to me this morning on the way in, saw a guy step out onto road near crossing so stopped for him to cross, he didn't look up for a few seconds, then said "sorry not paying attention "
What can you do but smile and ride off?

slowbike

WTF is wrong with slowing down or stopping?
I regularly stop and let pedestrians cross on the last bit of my commute in - mostly because cars coming up there don't stop and it makes it dodgy for the parents and primary age school children to cross. At least if I stop in the middle of the lane and let them over then the car driver will see me first (with my rear light on) and let the kids cross safely.

Ok - fair enough - that's about my only interaction with pedestrians on my commute - the rest of the 9+ miles is just me, country A road and a number of cars & lorries going past.

veronese68

kleinstroker wrote:

Happened to me this morning on the way in, saw a guy step out onto road near crossing so stopped for him to cross, he didn't look up for a few seconds, then said "sorry not paying attention "
What can you do but smile and ride off?

I think the alternative is to ride full tilt whilst screaming at them to get out of the way. Not sure that's a good idea though.
At least he had the good grace to apologise, maybe he'll look next time. As you say, smile and move on it's not worth worrying about.

fat daddy

TheBigBean wrote:

Solution, as ever, is to not ride next to curb. It's a bit like the car door campaign - why are people riding that close to car doors?

goes against the infrastructure though doesnt it :? .. the narow cycle lane is placed next to the curb ... you need to teach cyclists not to cycle in the provided lane but next to it in the road where you impede traffic flow, add to congestion and reap the wrath of infuriated drivers.

then there is the Bristol special of having the parking, then the cycle lane, then the road, so again encouraging you to ride next to parked cars.

I do avoid peds every day on my commute 99% are them stepping off the pavement to get around obstructions, without looking into the path of cyclists.

rich_e

TheBigBean wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Rich_E wrote:

Most of the close calls I have with pedestrians when on the bike are people who step out into the road without looking. Yes there are obviously those who are too busy with their phone, but I find in most cases it's people who don't hear an approaching car, so make the move before actually stopping to check it's safe to cross.

It's something that's going to become even more relevant as the number of electric vehicles which are very quiet increase on the roads. A pedestrian is going to come off a lot worse vs a car than a bicycle.

Totally agree. The more electric cars the better. Pedestrians will have to look.

There is a push from some people to include a loudspeaker on electric cars to sound like an engine to help blind people, which seems to penalise everyone else.

https://www.theverge.com/2016/11/16/136 ... ian-safety

These people usually look eventually, they just don't look when they first step off the curb, because they know that bit doesn't contain a car (by sound). Solution, as ever, is to not ride next to curb. It's a bit like the car door campaign - why are people riding that close to car doors?

If it was only that simple though eh?

There are some segregated bike lanes in London, such as the ones in Tavistock place. Despite it having special lanes and lots of cycle traffic, I often see pedestrians crossing without looking.

The more pertinent issue with being too close to the kerb is a lot of cyclists do it because they don't want to inconvenience motorists. But further to that, even when you are a good cyclist travelling at speed, I've had plenty of motorists get in a huff with me when I take a primary position. That though I again think comes back to how poorly educated some road users are and have this need to get past a cyclist, even when all they are doing is trying to speed towards a red traffic light where the cyclist will just jump ahead of the queue of traffic anyway.

TheBigBean

I wouldn't use the Tavistock square bike lane. One of the most dangerous ones out there. I also wouldn't use the one that it connects to on the other side of Tottenham Ct Rd.

Yes, that makes me unpopular sometimes, which is unfortunate, but at least I'm vaguely safe. I do try to ride a bit quicker in those circumstances though.

kleinstroker

Got my licence plate sorted out if needed

awavey

the major concern I have about it is this whole thing has kicked off because the government want to be "seen to be doing" something and actually theres a good piece by James Moore in the Indy about the politics behind it http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/cha ... 59626.html

and Ive no doubt a review in to the safety of cyclists/pedestrians on the road, will not address the real issues at all, but come up with a bunch of measures, like helmets, high viz, day lights etc etc and there will be MPs who support that and say things like "but if it saves one life it will be worth it" and cycling organisations will struggle to combine to bring sanity back to it.

and there are already MPs who think that it would be a good idea http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/brexit ... ill/021804

rolf_f

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

jds_1981 wrote:

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

Maybe there will also be some sort of jaywalking law introduced...

Please no jay walking laws. People should be allowed to cross the road..

Sorry, that was a poor use of words. "Careless walking in the carriageway" or "Walking without paying due care an attention" sort of thing.

I like that. Effectively a ban on non hands-free mobile phone use by pedestrians!

kingstongraham

Ben Bradshaw MP: "We're still waiting for the comprehensive review of road traffic offences the Gov't announce in May 2014 because of rise in cyclist & pedestrian deaths. Today Gov't announces review just for cyclists because of one tragic case. Wrong priorities. Knee jerk policy making."