Religious parents ...boy wearing dress

mfin
mfin Posts: 6,729
edited September 2017 in The cake stop
Probably not the best title/desc... anyway...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-41224146

It took about 60 seconds of watching to realise these parents were religious nutjobs.

Their judgement is logically impaired by their stupid beliefs. They're making things up at worst and reading into their kid's opinions at best.

This should only be news based on the fact the parents are morons. Yes there are interesting issues to perhaps think about, but it seems they are the last people capable of doing so.
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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,026
    Just saying...

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  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,069
    mfin wrote:
    Probably not the best title/desc... anyway...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-41224146

    It took about 60 seconds of watching to realise these parents were religious nutjobs.

    Their judgement is logically impaired by their stupid beliefs. They're making things up at worst and reading into their kid's opinions at best.

    This should only be news based on the fact the parents are morons. Yes there are interesting issues to perhaps think about, but it seems they are the last people capable of doing so.

    Whilst I agree the school in question is a C of E school and so you'd expect people sending their kids there to have religious beliefs (even though the church seems to have different ones in this case).

    That said, it seems a bit odd to let a boy of primary school age to go to school in a dress and I can understand a 5 year old kid getting a bit confused by it.
  • mamba80
    mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    listened to this on R4, there is fcuk all biblical about the stupid parents stance and if their kid is confused, then its up to them to explain and give support, locking them away in a home educated environment will just ensure another couple of nutters will emerge.

    Pross u should have been bought up in cornwall, there is nothing strange about a boy in a dress, usually with his sister in it too.
  • If this is an issue then one solution is to make it compulsory to wear one uniform option so there is no difference between what the genders are wearing. That includes gender neutral shoes and no accessories like hair clips or jewellery. If there is no external indications of gender from day one at school then surely there can be no issue with gender identity.

    BTW I heard them on r4 this morning. They didn't sound like religious nut jobs to me just ignorant of gender issues like pretty much the majority of the general public.

    They also made the point that their aim was to force the LEA/government to clarify the exact legal situation on gender identity in primary / secondary schools. In some ways this aim is worthwhile. In some ways policies or legal interpretation is being made on the fly by schools or at best each LEA.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    I listened to them being crucified by Adrian Chiles on Radio 5. He was quite a b4st4rd to them in my opinion. They were not religious nutters, but trying to enforce some clarity on how to deal with gender issues at primary school level. They claimed that a letter had been circulated stating that all other pupils would be punished if they called the boy by the wrong pronoun (He/She).
    The pertinent question being. Does a 5/6 year old really truly know whether they've been born into the wrong body? Clearly the boy in the dress doesn't, as he seems to change from boy to girl clothing on a frequent basis. It's his parents that should have been interviewed. Clearly they are in need of some support too.
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  • Mr Goo wrote:
    I listened to them being crucified by Adrian Chiles on Radio 5. He was quite a b4st4rd to them in my opinion. They were not religious nutters, but trying to enforce some clarity on how to deal with gender issues at primary school level. They claimed that a letter had been circulated stating that all other pupils would be punished if they called the boy by the wrong pronoun (He/She).
    The pertinent question being. Does a 5/6 year old really truly know whether they've been born into the wrong body? Clearly the boy in the dress doesn't, as he seems to change from boy to girl clothing on a frequent basis. It's his parents that should have been interviewed. Clearly they are in need of some support too.

    Crucified... that would be ampt.

    Just let the kids get on with it, explain that some people dont yet know what they are, for some its just a phase for others its something that is a genetic issue/something they are born with, like being Ginger lol! but they are still your friends and you should not treat them any differently.
    Kids at that age dont need all the answers as they wont yet ask all the questions.

    Your last paragraph shows a little ignorance on the subject.
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    Pross wrote:
    I can understand a 5 year old kid getting a bit confused by it.


    they are 5 ... they get confused by everything

    (1) why is the moon out at the same time as the sun
    (2) why does that fat women buy biscuits if she is fat
    (3) why can I say Poopoo and not Sh1t
    (4) why cant I say poopoo when grandma is not here

    the list is endless. ..... but the best thing is children ARE people and you can explain stuff to them in a way that they might not get the bigger picture but it settles their mind.

    Crap If I were to take my kid out of school everytime something confused her :shock: .... Its kind of like being offended in the fact than when you are offended, nothing actually happens ? ... no one dies, no one gets cancer from it ... you are just offended ... same with confusion, you cant protect a child from being confuised by removing them from everything :mrgreen:
  • Actually saying the parents of the child with gender identity issues need support is a very valid point. Support for parents of children with gender identity issues are quite possibly dealing with a lot of problems coming to terms with what is happening to their child. Suggesting they need support which is quite likely lacking is a positive point of view.

    BTW the child is IMHO having gender identity issues. They are choosing between two genders on a day by day basis so I reckon that shows a degree of issues coming to terms with things. However they're 5ish years of age so that's understandable.

    The point at issue here is this situation hasn't been addressed in a joined up way. It shouldn't be down to small, local decision makers how to deal with problems arising from children with coming to terms with their gender identity on an ad-hoc or case by case basis. By making this issue public that religious family is doing a good service.

    One last point, their religion is being used as a hook to hang this story on. I've done it too above in the last sentence of the above paragraph. It's not a religious matter. Indeed I am not convinced the family raising this issue is looking at it as a purely religious matter for them. What I heard from the r4 interview was more about asking for clarity on a wider scale than their kids' schools. IMHO it shouldn't be treated as a knock religious matter which these threads tend to b descend into. It's a social matter.
  • mr_goo
    mr_goo Posts: 3,770
    Lookyhere wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    I listened to them being crucified by Adrian Chiles on Radio 5. He was quite a b4st4rd to them in my opinion. They were not religious nutters, but trying to enforce some clarity on how to deal with gender issues at primary school level. They claimed that a letter had been circulated stating that all other pupils would be punished if they called the boy by the wrong pronoun (He/She).
    The pertinent question being. Does a 5/6 year old really truly know whether they've been born into the wrong body? Clearly the boy in the dress doesn't, as he seems to change from boy to girl clothing on a frequent basis. It's his parents that should have been interviewed. Clearly they are in need of some support too.

    Crucified... that would be ampt.

    Just let the kids get on with it, explain that some people dont yet know what they are, for some its just a phase for others its something that is a genetic issue/something they are born with, like being Ginger lol! but they are still your friends and you should not treat them any differently.
    Kids at that age dont need all the answers as they wont yet ask all the questions.

    Your last paragraph shows a little ignorance on the subject.

    I have no first hand experience of the subject. Ergo I am ignorant of it. As I am sure nearly the whole population of the world is. Therefore I speak at a stance that is trying to understand it but never one that is insulting to it. I hope you're not implying the latter.
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  • singleton
    singleton Posts: 2,519
    mfin wrote:
    It took about 60 seconds of watching to realise these parents were religious nutjobs.

    Their judgement is logically impaired by their stupid beliefs. They're making things up at worst and reading into their kid's opinions at best.

    This should only be news based on the fact the parents are morons.

    I watched all of the video and didn't hear one mention of their religious views.
    What is your problem with them holding religious views anyway? Do you think that makes them narrow minded or intolerant?

    You have provided ample evidence of your own intolerance in your opening post - presumably you haven't met them but you are still calling them "nut jobs", "stupid" and "morons".

    It's not the way that I'd handle the situation, but I won't condemn them for their actions.
  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    My 2yo calls his Uncle Auntie ... he's not confused (my 2yo or his Uncle) he just gets mixed up with names sometimes.

    Personally, I take exception to anyone sexualising a child - which is what we seem to be doing to our little ones now. They've got to dress in gender appropriate clothing & play with gender appropriate toys ... ffs - they're children ... other than who has a willy and who hasn't they haven't got a clue about gender and what it really means - and they shouldn't need to just yet.

    BBC did a program on gender neutral schooling (filmed in Cowes) which was interesting - the outcome of the experiment is that the head teacher has decided to gender neutralise the whole school.
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,425
    fat daddy wrote:
    you cant protect a child from being confuised by removing them from everything :mrgreen:
    Have to agree with this. The parents have removed both of their children from the school at different times for the same reason. Hardly teaching their kids tolerance. They say it doesn't fit with their religious beliefs, so are they bringing their children up to run away from anything that doesn't fit with their beliefs? The diocese says that CofE schools are inclusive, that parents are not being very inclusive, it's up to them to help and guide their children. I do not believe a young child will be told off if they are genuinely confused about a boy wearing a dress and call them a girl instead of a boy or vice versa. The school would talk to the kid and help guide and teach them, that's what schools do and what parents should do as well. If the kid was to taunt the other kid the school would no the difference and after having a word they would rightly get in trouble. I can't help thinking that taunting is more likely given the attitude of the parents, if not now later in life perhaps.
    It's amazing how many people can claim great offence by virtue of their religious beliefs when it suits them but conveniently forget when it doesn't.
    For clarity this is what is written in the article:
    The Rowes say the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts with their Christian beliefs
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,159
    Aren't the parents upset because they're being told what gender someone would like to be considered as, rather than being allowed to decide themselves what gender they treat someone as?

    That was my take.

    There's a guy in my office who uses his middle name for his first name at work. He gets cheesed off when someone uses his actual first name.

    Should I feel like my rights are being infringed upon?

    Did anyone explain to them that it's just good manners to refer to someone as they would like to be referred to?

    Presumably they don't get upset that the teacher insists the kids refer to them by their title and surname.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Pross wrote:
    That said, it seems a bit odd to let a boy of primary school age to go to school in a dress and I can understand a 5 year old kid getting a bit confused by it.

    They are saying the same but the confusion is stressful to their child, taking them out.

    The stress being so high that the course of action is even logical is a lie, it can't be anything else. Any NORMAL, regular parent would simply tell their who mentions it that it is not hurting anyone, and as long as the child is happy that's great, don't worry about it at all, be their friend and be happy too ...or, to summarise, just have a quick discussion, reassure them it's all cool and that's all it would take.

    Anyway, the above is obvious and I'm sure you'd think the same.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    One last point, their religion is being used as a hook to hang this story on. I've done it too above in the last sentence of the above paragraph. It's not a religious matter.

    Not a religious matter? You can bet it is to them. You can bet that they are literally praying for guidance over it all which is about as far from rational thought as you can get. They are also clearly stating they are informed by church led information on gender issues. Do they get everything from the church or looking to god to inform their thinking? Of course they probably do. Idiots.

    I think this is informed by religion, well, it is, and their church too to some level.

    Religion should never be allowed anywhere near any form of decision making that affects our lives, not even into the debate, it is based on nothing but complete b****cks and it turns otherwise perfectly normal people into ones who can't think straight. This example is no different in that respect to stupid beliefs of ISIS or the Taliban really, because behind it, it is void of logic and free thought.

    I also think it is completely offensive to push religion onto any child, doing so is a form of abuse. (But that's another matter).
  • singleton
    singleton Posts: 2,519
    mfin wrote:
    I also think it is completely offensive to push religion onto any child, doing so is a form of abuse. (But that's another matter).

    Is that what has has made you so angry and judgemental?

    Did your parents "push religion onto" you?
  • fat daddy
    fat daddy Posts: 2,605
    mfin wrote:
    I also think it is completely offensive to push religion onto any child, doing so is a form of abuse

    yeah and the tooth fairy, Santa and the Easter bunny ... child abusres all of them !!
  • Singleton wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    It took about 60 seconds of watching to realise these parents were religious nutjobs.

    Their judgement is logically impaired by their stupid beliefs. They're making things up at worst and reading into their kid's opinions at best.

    This should only be news based on the fact the parents are morons.
    What is your problem with them holding religious views anyway? Do you think that makes them narrow minded or intolerant?
    .
    In the majority of cases you can't be open minded and religious as this story illustrates. Religion by its nature gives you a narrow view to prescribe to... otherwise if you were open minded you wouldn't be religious, wouldn't mind what someone wore, wouldn't mind that same sex marriages happened, wouldn't tell a woman what to do with her body etc etc


    :evil:
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,916
    Singleton wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    It took about 60 seconds of watching to realise these parents were religious nutjobs.

    Their judgement is logically impaired by their stupid beliefs. They're making things up at worst and reading into their kid's opinions at best.

    This should only be news based on the fact the parents are morons.
    What is your problem with them holding religious views anyway? Do you think that makes them narrow minded or intolerant?
    .
    In the majority of cases you can't be open minded and religious as this story illustrates. Religion by its nature gives you a narrow view to prescribe to... otherwise if you were open minded you wouldn't be religious, wouldn't mind what someone wore, wouldn't mind that same sex marriages happened, wouldn't tell a woman what to do with her body etc etc


    :evil:

    No, I don't think that's fair. First of all there is a big difference between applying a particular set of beliefs to one's own behaviour and seeking to impose them on others'. One should always be suspicious of people who are more interested in what everyone else should or shouldn't do than how their religious beliefs guide their own actions.
    Secondly, there's a strong tendency to dress any old prejudice up as a religious belief. In this case the parents would seem to be at odds with their own church. The C of E have a pretty positive approach to transgender issues and the General Synod has overwhelmingly passed a motion welcoming transgender people to the extent that special services will be developed to mark someone's transition.
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  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 26,026
    As I tried to illustrate above, Jesus supposedly wore what could be called a dress so any Christian religious types should be ambivalent to what people wear. In fact, should trousers not be frowned upon?
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • slowbike
    slowbike Posts: 8,498
    TBF - I've found Church of England to be reasonably tollerant of other views and religions - that's not to say that individuals aren't.
    Fortunately it's just the few more fanatical that seem to take religious texts at face value - I feel sorry for any kids involved as it's them who bare the brunt of it - the rest of us can just ignore them!
  • veronese68
    veronese68 Posts: 27,425
    rjsterry wrote:
    No, I don't think that's fair. First of all there is a big difference between applying a particular set of beliefs to one's own behaviour and seeking to impose them on others'. One should always be suspicious of people who are more interested in what everyone else should or shouldn't do than how their religious beliefs guide their own actions.
    Secondly, there's a strong tendency to dress any old prejudice up as a religious belief. In this case the parents would seem to be at odds with their own church. The C of E have a pretty positive approach to transgender issues and the General Synod has overwhelmingly passed a motion welcoming transgender people to the extent that special services will be developed to mark someone's transition.
    Well said.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 41,069
    Singleton wrote:
    I watched all of the video and didn't hear one mention of their religious views.

    The initial report I heard yesterday (on the BBC) was stating the parents removing their child did so because the school's decision was against their religious beliefs. However, as others have pointed out the C of E had supported the school in its decision and the implication would be that the parents who removed their child have religious beliefs that contradict the C of E and therefore removing the child from a C of E school would seem to be the right move for the wrong reason!
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Singleton wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    I also think it is completely offensive to push religion onto any child, doing so is a form of abuse. (But that's another matter).

    Is that what has has made you so angry and judgemental?

    Did your parents "push religion onto" you?

    Well first of all, I'm not angry, I don't know why you'd assume that. Judgemental? Well, on the topic you quoted yes I am. I believe young minds should not be filled with fear driven fairy story drivel, the more we can do to stop this happening the better. It might not be possible to change parents behaviour, but religion could and should be eradicated from schools apart from when teaching what all different religions believe.

    No is the answer to whether my parents pushed religion onto me, one is not religious in the slightest, one maybe is just a little but keeps it to themself.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    edited September 2017
    fat daddy wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    I also think it is completely offensive to push religion onto any child, doing so is a form of abuse

    yeah and the tooth fairy, Santa and the Easter bunny ... child abusres all of them !!

    Not the same, not at all, these are simple things everyone grows out of. Religion pushed as if it is real is an attempt to brainwash someone into believing complete and utter b*****cks, and most religions like Christianity have underlying fear and control.

    There is absolutely nothing real in them, kids should be taught of the susceptibility of the human mind to be brainwashed by what they are exposed to, hence why if you live in a predominantly muslim country with muslim parents you are likely to believe that version, and if you live in a predominantly christian country with christian parents you are likely to go that way.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Singleton wrote:
    What is your problem with them holding religious views anyway? Do you think that makes them narrow minded or intolerant?

    My problem is when religious views lead people to be narrow minded and intolerant. Religious views are stupid. When a particular religious view is pretty much normal it is not a function of the religious view. Plenty of religious views are stupid and many of them when informing some sections of people are dangerous and justify all sorts of behaviour.
  • Look, the wife and I both completely agree on this issue.........it's BS. Yes, we're both what you would call "believers".

    We can accept the decision of an ADULT or children medically born intersex and treat those people as whomever they choose to be.

    We however cannot accept that an average CHILD can suddenly determine they want to be a different gender. Well......my son said he wants to be a dinosaur or a toucan. Let's see THAT happen too then.

    I have a tolerance for a well thought out and difficult decision. I don't have tolerance for stupidity. A 6 year old can NOT make that determination.

    The best you can do for a child that was NOT born intersex is to properly guide that child in the direction of their born gender until that child is an adult. Then you can support that adult however possible if they decide otherwise.

    It's gone TOO far when children with no medical reason to be otherwise have the decision making powers at the hands of their parents to identify with another gender.

    No, you don't pick on that child. But if I were putting my kids in a school I THOUGHT agreed with my opinion on the topic, yeah, I'd pull my kids from that school also.

    I live in the US. I have 2 boys. I don't force them to play with toy soldiers, weapons, snakes, and sports. But they will NOT be allowed to wear dresses and pretend to be a gender they are not.

    Disagreement on this topic is often seen as bigotry or ugliness, when sometimes it isn't. It turns to that when you intend to hurt the other person. I'd never intentionally try to hurt a child whose parents can't properly raise them. It's not "offensive" to accidentally mis-take a boy for a girl if you let their hair grow out and wear dresses.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 73,159
    I think it's correct and fair (within reason) for parents to be allow them to bring their children up in a way they they see fit.

    If someone has found their devotion to a faith to be helpful to their lives, what is it your business to stop them imparting that understanding onto their children?

    I think you spend too much time reading Guardian articles about unusual weirdo loony religious types who spend too much time projecting their own issues onto other people, rather than your more common person who happens to hold some religious beliefs to help them get through their lives and enrich them.

    You can judge people for all sorts of stuff, and I do, but when it comes to what people use to get through their lives, it's best to keep the judgements to yourself.
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    We however cannot accept that an average CHILD can suddenly determine they want to be a different gender

    I know you probably wrote that quickly, but that wording is not right, it's not to do with "want" it is to do with realisation. Want means you desire something you might not get, this is to do with being a certain way.

    It's almost like the phrasing people use (or belief in weird cases) that people choose whether to be gay or not.

    Anyway, I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, it's actually along the lines of what those parents were aiming at and said, although I'm not sure it is in that short version of the video.