Whyte Glencoe - clever niche product or emperors new clothes?

Matty2BMatty2B Posts: 62
edited May 2018 in Road buying advice
First post here - please be gentle... :wink:

Having recently got back into cycling I am now commuting to work 2-3 days a week on a circa year 2000 Specialized Crossroads. There's nothing wrong with it, but being a steel hybrid it's quite upright, heavy and relatively slow. That would be no issue in town, but my route (~7 miles each way) is now predominantly rural incorporating 3 longish, slow climbs for which it is not really suited followed by some flat, fast cycleways. I'd therefore like to replace it with something lighter and faster, but without sacrificing too much comfort and retaining the ability to do gentle cinder trail rides with my daughter at w/es. Budget is £1-1.3k, not on cycle to work (my MTB has been bought on that scheme already!).

Looking at alternatives the new Whyte Glencoe has caught my eye:

b6f680_732c0831bac84ff3b78c1de1cb18a9ce~mv2_d_5906_3661_s_4_2.jpg

whyte-glencoe-2018-%5B2%5D-43467-p.jpg

It looks great, has a 1x drivetrain familiar from my MTB, a reliable threaded BB and nice wide handlebars for a drop bar novice like me. It also rolls on 47mm tyres and 650b wheels, a combo claimed to offer excellent comfort whilst still maintaining low rolling resistance. On the downside it is a £1300 bike without a carbon fork, there are no mudguards available until Xmas according to Whyte (muddies are essential for me to be able to commute year round) and it has those TRP HyRd cable actuated hydraulic brakes which I am somewhat unsure about.

My heart says buy one, but my head thinks there are more practical and cost effective alternatives available (the Boardman CX Team, Ribble CGR or even a Volt e-bike). I am in no rush and can afford to wait for the first reviews to emerge, but would be interested to hear what those of you with more experience think of this bike.

Is it a cleverly specced commuter weapon for riders like me who value comfort as well as speed, or an exercise in style over substance? Over to you... :?:
Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
Specialized Crossroads 2000
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Posts

  • If you've already got an MTB the Glencoe seems a bit too off-road-centric for the use you describe. You mention the Boardman and the Ribble, there's also the Planet X London Road or Dolan RDX to consider from online retailers, or the Felt VR series, Spesh Diverge etc from bigger brands. Against the Whyte most of these look pretty good value to me, meaning your budget could even allow for some upgrades. Also, are the mudguards for the Glencoe proprietary ones by Whyte? Couldn't you fit off the shelf ones?
  • I'm a huge fan the new gravel bikes like the Whyte. But I ride off-road as much as I ride on-road.
    The spec on the Whyte isn't great, but its trying to reach a certain price point. I really don't like the TRP Brakes on the Whyte. But I do like the 1x11 drive train on "adventure" bikes. From reading the type of riding you would be doing I would also say this bike might be overkill.
    Also don't be fooled by marketing speak about rolling resistance. Its all relative, a 650B wheel with a 47mm tyre isn't going to be as quick as a 700cc low rolling resistance 25 or 28mm tyre. These tyres are still quicker than a knobbly but they are a lot heavier than a good 25mm tyre. But most people who buy these types of bike appreciate that the wheel / tyre provides excellent grip and comfort and they roll faster than a 29er mtb over semi or non technical terrain.
    I'm currently building up a Cotic Escapade, which is similar to the Whyte Glencoe. I also have a Trek Domane ALR which has 105, hydraulic discs and can fit pretty wide knobbly tyres (33's). The Trek maybe something that is worth a look at? Its quick on normal roads (as quick as any endurance based road bike with slicks) and the ability to take wider knobbly tyres is a bonus. During the winter I fit it with 32mm slicks and can still fit full guards.
    The Boardman CX is well respected by people on here so that's worth a look. I'd set your minimum spec at a bike able to take wide tyres with full guards (32mm) and to have hydraulic disc brakes - for me that's a decent spec for a commuter and what should be able to be found in your budget.
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 6,569
    Boardman CX is probably best VFM at the moment.
    Moda Bolero wet bike.
    Giant Anthem SX
    Giant TCX CX bike
    Defy Adv Pro 2 shiny nice bike.
    Boardman comp hardtail. Not so little oxo,s
  • Evans brand pinnacle do a very similar bike (with the wtb 650b tyres and 1x11 transmission) with Di2 for £1750

    https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-ar ... e-EV294853

    pinnacle-arkose-ltd-2017-adventure-road-bike-EV294853-9999-3.jpg
  • janwaljanwal Posts: 445
    I can't fault my cx team really comfy ride and superb brakes.Check in store as Huddersfield has a 53 for £800 and a 55 for£900. When I bought mine in the Easter sale they told then that were end of line.The Rival groupset alone costs £750!
  • how about a Pickenflick like H3 has?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • Matty2BMatty2B Posts: 62
    edited September 2017
    Wow, loads of great info here - many thanks all! Lots to digest (will post again later when I have had time to do some more research), but gut feel is that you have suggested a number of superior alternatives to the Glencoe. Some are definitely out of my price range for a commuter, but others look very promising, in particular the hydro equipped Planet X London Road 8).

    CBPXLDNRIVHRD_P1.jpg?v=b

    Thanks again! :D
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,777
    Matty2B wrote:
    Wow, loads of great info here - many thanks all! Lots to digest (will post again later when I have had time to do some more research), but gut feel is that you have suggested a number of superior alternatives to the Glencoe. Some are definitely out of my price range for a commuter, but others look very promising, in particular the PlanetX London Road. Thanks again! :D
    There's a good London Road owner's thread here, which includes a lot of info and pros and cons viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12998860

    I'm coming up on 5000 miles on mine and I love it. Best commuter I've ever had.
  • Personally I think that buying bikes is a bit like buying cars in that you can look for the best value for money or you can choose the one that you like and that fits your needs and your budget. There will always be someone who thinks that a particular bike is better than any bike you choose whatever decision you make, be it based on their own purchase or claimed value for money. Try the Glencoe, which looks interesting and perfectly fine to me, and then ride some other bikes and see what feels right to you.
  • Matty2BMatty2B Posts: 62
    edited September 2017
    If you've already got an MTB the Glencoe seems a bit too off-road-centric for the use you describe. You mention the Boardman and the Ribble, there's also the Planet X London Road or Dolan RDX to consider from online retailers, or the Felt VR series, Spesh Diverge etc from bigger brands. Against the Whyte most of these look pretty good value to me, meaning your budget could even allow for some upgrades. Also, are the mudguards for the Glencoe proprietary ones by Whyte? Couldn't you fit off the shelf ones?
    Many thanks, I certainly like the look of the Planet X. Re: the Glencoe mudguards, Whyte confirmed to me on FB that they are bringing out proprietary ones as the rear does not have a traditional mudguard fitment. They told me there are aftermarket guards available that should fit, but when pushed weren't able to direct me to any.
    w00dster wrote:
    I'm a huge fan the new gravel bikes like the Whyte. But I ride off-road as much as I ride on-road.
    The spec on the Whyte isn't great, but its trying to reach a certain price point. I really don't like the TRP Brakes on the Whyte. But I do like the 1x11 drive train on "adventure" bikes. From reading the type of riding you would be doing I would also say this bike might be overkill.
    Many thanks. I was never keen on those TRP brakes from the moment I read about them, glad it isn't just me!
    w00dster wrote:
    I'd set your minimum spec at a bike able to take wide tyres with full guards (32mm) and to have hydraulic disc brakes - for me that's a decent spec for a commuter and what should be able to be found in your budget.
    Many thanks for your advice - I will certainly be using that last statement as a guide, it was the conclusion I had started to come to myself but it's nice to have it confirmed. The Domane SLR and Boardman CX are clearly both good options worthy of consideration, but since finding out about the Planet X (which I was completely unaware of before starting this thread) that has become my current favourite.
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • Matty2BMatty2B Posts: 62
    edited September 2017
    Evans brand pinnacle do a very similar bike (with the wtb 650b tyres and 1x11 transmission) with Di2 for £1750

    https://www.evanscycles.com/pinnacle-ar ... e-EV294853
    Very nice but a bit too expensive - sorry! The Arkose 3 and 4 look good options though.
    how about a Pickenflick like H3 has?
    Sorry, too expensive for a commuter - whilst I do have a very secure lockup at work I don't want to be worrying excessively about it when out and about on the shopping run etc, so £1.3k seems like the absolute maximum for this bike (that and it's clear I am going to get something extremely capable for around £1k).
    Graeme_S wrote:
    There's a good London Road owner's thread here, which includes a lot of info and pros and cons viewtopic.php?f=40044&t=12998860

    I'm coming up on 5000 miles on mine and I love it. Best commuter I've ever had.
    Many thanks - plenty of bedtime reading there! I am up to page 10 so far...
    Personally I think that buying bikes is a bit like buying cars in that you can look for the best value for money or you can choose the one that you like and that fits your needs and your budget. There will always be someone who thinks that a particular bike is better than any bike you choose whatever decision you make, be it based on their own purchase or claimed value for money. Try the Glencoe, which looks interesting and perfectly fine to me, and then ride some other bikes and see what feels right to you.
    Agreed. Hopefully I will be able to see a number of the options in the flesh at the NEC bike show, then make a decision. If the Glencoe makes a good impression in the flesh I may still go for it, but some of the other options look great too and are clearly better specced (Rival vs. Apex drivetrain, full hydraulics vs. hybrid brakes) and are lighter so it will have to go some.
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • marco67marco67 Posts: 164
    I bought and built a Mango Point AR earlier this year - I love it. Great for road, towpath and more gravelly tracks and it handled a two week tour in Taiwan.

    https://www.mangobikes.com/bikes/point-ar-bike/
    Ciao Marco
  • Matty2B I'm in a similar situation to you, I'm leaning towards a Dolan RDX but then I'm not keen on a 1x transmission and would prefer Shimano to SRAM. Let us know what you end up with!
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 21,994 Lives Here
    Matty2B wrote:
    Hopefully I will be able to see a number of the options in the flesh at the NEC bike show, then make a decision. If I the Glencoe makes a good impression in the flesh I may still go for it, but some of the other options look great too and are clearly better specced (Rival vs. Apex drivetrain, full hydraulics vs. hybrid brakes) and are lighter so it will have to go some.
    For that price I would expect proper full hydraulics, not a compromise. I ride my Pro6 on hard packed trails on 32mm road tyres and they are fine for that. 650b with fat rubber may be a little over the top. There are plenty of bikes that will take both, not sure if the Whyte is one of them. I'd go 700c and 32-37mm rubber.
  • Matty2BMatty2B Posts: 62
    edited September 2017
    marco67 wrote:
    I bought and built a Mango Point AR earlier this year - I love it. Great for road, towpath and more gravelly tracks and it handled a two week tour in Taiwan.

    https://www.mangobikes.com/bikes/point-ar-bike/
    Nice bike, but sadly does not come with hydro brakes so I can't really add to my list. I am sure the mechanical discs would offer plenty of stopping power, but being familiar with hydraulics from my MTB (and the almost complete lack of maintenance that they require) means I prefer them even for a commuter. Also there is no way I could ride an orange bike given I'm a ginger...! (Joke - I am aware it comes in white and gunmetal too :lol: )
    Matty2B I'm in a similar situation to you, I'm leaning towards a Dolan RDX but then I'm not keen on a 1x transmission and would prefer Shimano to SRAM. Let us know what you end up with!
    I am completely sold on 1x for MTBs and like SRAM, but have never ridden a 1x road/CX bike. Given this will be used almost entirely for commuting and leisurely rides with the kids on local cinder trails I don't think it will matter much to me, but I may go for the 2x option if I do choose the Planet X (it costs the same) as it will be spending >80% of it's time on the road.
    veronese68 wrote:
    For that price I would expect proper full hydraulics, not a compromise. I ride my Pro6 on hard packed trails on 32mm road tyres and they are fine for that. 650b with fat rubber may be a little over the top. There are plenty of bikes that will take both, not sure if the Whyte is one of them. I'd go 700c and 32-37mm rubber.
    I believe the Glencoe will take 700C as well, but you can't order it that way - I guess they figure the Friston and Gisburn cover those who want a 700C CX machine.

    Agreed on spec though; it's clear they are trading on the incredibly strong brand they have built up and the fact they produce very conservatively (meaning their bikes are almost always in short supply) to charge a premium for machine that looks underspecced compared to the competition. I had a similar experience when choosing my MTB - the Whyte's get great reviews and look lovely in the flesh, but they work out very expensive for what you get in terms of components. I'm sure they would argue it's because their frames are superior, but for a very average rider like me I'm not sure I would ever be able to tell the difference! I still love the look of the Glencoe, but knowledgeable posters such as yourself have convinced me that 650b wheelset and heavy 46mm tyres are probably not optimised for the riding I will be doing and that £1300 is more than I need to spend for a bike that will do what I need.
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • Yes, I'm coming at it from a road point of view, hence the 2x Shimano and seeing how narrow and light I can get away with the tyres!
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 21,994 Lives Here
    I bought my Pro6 over 3 years ago and the choice was a lot more limited with respect to drop bars and rim brakes, thankfully as it makes choosing easier. Having done the London to Brighton off road on an MTB a couple of times I thought I'd attempt it on the CX bike. For 95% of the ride it was the best bike for the job. For the remaining 5% it was either too highly geared as I couldn't get up one hill or utterly terrifying on a couple of fast off road descents. One of them was steep and muddy with lots of roots so I was on a hiding to nothing even with 42mm tyres squeezed in. The other was a fast pebbly track and I got a big wobble. With a bit more talent, ok a lot more, they would have been rideable even on those tyres. So you can do more than you'd think on a 700c CX bike.
    The biggest failing on the Whyte is the brakes. You will still have cable issues which you just don't need, they are a compromise. I have a Parabox convertor which is an earlier compromise, but it means I am hydraulic from the stem down. But I still hanker after proper hydraulics because what I have never feels as good as the full hydraulics on the MTB.
  • Curto80Curto80 Posts: 314
    OP I've had an eye on the Glencoe for a while myself.

    As it happens they had a Whyte tent in the race village after the Tour o the Borders yesterday so I stopped for a look and a chat with the rep.

    It the flesh it looks amazing and made me really think hard about taking the plunge.

    You can absolutely switch between the stock 650b and 700x32 if you want to. The Glencoe has exactly the same frame as the Gisburn/Friston so you are getting a flexible bike.

    In terms of value yeah it's more expensive then the Boardman CX team but I don't actually think beyond that comparison it is overpriced. SRAM 1 groupsets are expensive for whatever reason.
    Rose Xlite Team 3100 Di2
    Kinesis Tripster ATR
    Orro Oxygen
  • Curto80 wrote:
    OP I've had an eye on the Glencoe for a while myself.

    As it happens they had a Whyte tent in the race village after the Tour o the Borders yesterday so I stopped for a look and a chat with the rep.

    It the flesh it looks amazing and made me really think hard about taking the plunge.

    You can absolutely switch between the stock 650b and 700x32 if you want to. The Glencoe has exactly the same frame as the Gisburn/Friston so you are getting a flexible bike.
    Arrgh - stop making this more complicated again! Sounds like I had better avoid the Whyte stand at the Cycle Show... :wink::lol:

    One thing that is obvious if you look at the geometry tables is the difference in philosophy between the Whyte CX/Adventure frameset (long TT, short stem, wide bars - basically MTB thinking) and more road focussed offerings like the Planet X and Ribble which are quite a bit shorter in the TT. Doesn't seem to show up that well in pics though!

    b6f680_732c0831bac84ff3b78c1de1cb18a9ce~mv2_d_5906_3661_s_4_2.jpg

    CBPXLDNRIVHRD_P1.jpg?v=b

    492_517_87035.png

    Clearly I am going to need to sit on these things to work out the sizing and which I prefer, hopefully they are all at the NEC.
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • veronese68veronese68 Posts: 21,994 Lives Here
    Curto80 wrote:
    The Glencoe has exactly the same frame as the Gisburn/Friston so you are getting a flexible bike.
    In that case I'd get one of the ones with 700c and proper hydraulic brakes. You can get a set of 650b wheels later if you want to do more off-roading.
  • veronese68 wrote:
    The biggest failing on the Whyte is the brakes. You will still have cable issues which you just don't need, they are a compromise. I have a Parabox convertor which is an earlier compromise, but it means I am hydraulic from the stem down. But I still hanker after proper hydraulics because what I have never feels as good as the full hydraulics on the MTB.
    I know hydraulics for the road is one of the most fervently debated topics in cycling right now. Putting aside which is "best" (I personally can see advantages for both and suspect rim brakes will continue to be available for a long time to come) I'd be pretty confident that very few who have tried out hydraulics go back to rim brakes for future bike purchases.
    veronese68 wrote:
    Curto80 wrote:
    The Glencoe has exactly the same frame as the Gisburn/Friston so you are getting a flexible bike.
    In that case I'd get one of the ones with 700c and proper hydraulic brakes. You can get a set of 650b wheels later if you want to do more off-roading.
    Could do, but the problem is they start at £1699 and are ginger... :(:wink:

    b18-whyte-friston-web-jpg_1.jpg
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • For fun I tried speccing out a London Road and a Dolan RDX online last night. Having read threads on both bikes many people complain the stock wheels are rather heavy, so by the time I had upgraded those I was over the £1200 mark in both instances with guards and rack fitted. That means the gap to the Whyte is more like £125-150 if comparing like for like, plus I could buy it from my LBS and get their (excellent) support. On the flip side it would have the bigger heavier tyres which look great but are somewhat overkill for my commute, and I'd have to live with the TRP Hy/Rd brakes and lower spec Apex groupset.

    What this does show is what great value the Boardman CX Team is, even at the list price of £1000 (I know it's frequently offered at less than that and you can get additional discount with British Cycling). The spec is impeccable and reviews are great, I just wish it didn't have a press fit BB (admittedly you could replace it quite a few times with the money saved at purchase though!). It's also Halfords only which is a definite downside IMO, but I guess you can't have everything...

    boardman-cx-team-01-1464869567873-iggbvzrazdo3-1200-80.jpg
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • FWIW the combo of tyre and wheel on the Glencoe is going to be definitely heavier than a pair of Disc Aksiums with 28mm tyres on, even if that's not necessarily a fair comparison! If I get the RDX I almost certainly won't be upgrading the wheels immediately, simply as I won't be able to afford to! Some people here seem to upgrade as soon as they buy, others "make do". I wouldn't lose too much sleep over buying any of these bikes and leaving the stock wheels on. But I reckon the Glencoe is going to be about a kg heavier than the RDX in stock guise, mainly in the wheels/tyres.

    I agree the Boardman looks great value. Bit frustrating they'd discounted it to £800 (£720 with a BC/CTC discount) in the Spring but it's been resolutely stuck at £1k ever since!
  • FWIW the combo of tyre and wheel on the Glencoe is going to be definitely heavier than a pair of Disc Aksiums with 28mm tyres on, even if that's not necessarily a fair comparison!

    ...I wouldn't lose too much sleep over buying any of these bikes and leaving the stock wheels on. But I reckon the Glencoe is going to be about a kg heavier than the RDX in stock guise, mainly in the wheels/tyres.
    Yes, the spec sheets indicate your estimates are bang on - the Dolan and Planet X come in at just under 10kg, the Whyte just under 11kg. Even with that difference though I think it will come down to which one I like when I see them in the flesh and which geo fits my body shape best - both will be a massive improvement over the heavy flat bar hybrid I ride now.
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • graeme_s-2graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,777
    My PX LR has the stock wheels on it still. They've been bomb proof for commuting, and I've done a 70+ mile hilly(ish) sportive and 60 mile training rides with mates on lighter road bikes without much trouble. I'm sure it'd be nicer with a lighter wheel set, but I wouldn't be rushing out to replace them if you're using it for commuting.
  • Graeme_S wrote:
    My PX LR has the stock wheels on it still. They've been bomb proof for commuting, and I've done a 70+ mile hilly(ish) sportive and 60 mile training rides with mates on lighter road bikes without much trouble. I'm sure it'd be nicer with a lighter wheel set, but I wouldn't be rushing out to replace them if you're using it for commuting.
    Thanks Graeme. I'm sure you're probably right, it's just I prefer getting my long term setup dialled right at the start rather than over an extended period of time - I am not really a tinkerer by nature. For commuting though I guess acceleration is not really of critical importance; the vast majority of the time I will just be tapping out a steady pace.

    It is a shame Whyte do not do framesets - if they did I'd get a Glencoe frame and build it up with 700Cs, 35mm rubber, SRAM Rival and hydraulics. Probably wouldn't work out too much cheaper than just buying a Friston, but it wouldn't be orange!
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • If you don't mind building the frame up, have a look at the Cotic Escapade, with a pair of Hunt Wheels and a pair of Soma Supple Vitesse 42mm tyres. Or maybe a Soma Wolverine with 700 x 2.1" tyres.
    https://www.cotic.co.uk/product/escapade
    http://theradavist.com/2016/08/golden-s ... lverine/#1
    Both are complete overkill, but would be great fun.

    Trek also do a drop bar bike that takes wide tyres and comes with racks already installed....
    http://www.cyclist.co.uk/trek/1196/trek-920-disc-review

    And the last one....
    http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... ite-50192/
  • Whoa, some of those are completely mad, especially the Wolverine! I think they may be a little over the top for a 14 mile round trip commute on tarmac... :lol:

    MattsSomaWolverine-5.jpg
    Getting better slowly, one crash at a time!
    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    Marin Hawk Hill 2 2018
    Kinesis Tripster AT, SRAM Apex
    Specialized Crossroads 2000
  • Yeah completely over the top for a 14 mile commute. That said i do a 12 mile daily commute on a rigid semi fat bike (3 inch knobblies). Also completely unnecessary as at least 9 miles is a cycle path.
    The wolverine would be awesome though....hmmm maybe next years project! (Completely not needed what so ever, but when does that ever stop us!)
    I still think the Trek Domane ALR Disc should be the bike for you though.
  • A bike not mentioned here yet but that bears quite a resemblance to the Glencoe (spec wise) is the Sonder Camino Al:

    https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/sonder-camino-alloy

    Again, probably a bit more off road based for your needs per se, but looks a good value bike and features 1x gearing and 650b/700c alternatives.
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