Problem with LBS (rear wheel botch job) advice pls

twotoebenny

I'm loathe to do this but looking for some advice. Apologies for length of post, I've tried to keep it brief.

I took a rear ffwd F6R into LBS to get bearings done. The wheel is 2 yrs old bought from wiggle. The lbs text me to tell me the freehub could do with being replaced so I agreed total cost £65.

A few days later got the wheel back and turns out the freehub wasn't turning freely, i therefore returned it the next day. The LBS had a quick look at it and told me there was some scoring/raised metal around the hub body where the freehub meets the hub and they'd have a look it.

Another text message saying it couldn't be fixed and I'd have to swallow that I couldn't use the wheel. I message back sayin not acceptable as the wheel was working fine with exception of bearings when I took it to lbs...

They spent the next few days trying to fix it and i got a call to say it was ok.
The mechanic had inserted a 4mm shim which enabled the hub to run free, I found this out via the shop as the boss had been given a run down of events (he'd been off on holiday) and contacted me to tell me he wasn't happy with this so would need more time to resolve the issue.

Today I got another message saying they couldn't fix the wheel and best come into the shop to discuss options. We both had our say and the lbs owner said he wouldn't swallow full cost but would try to get parts etc to rebuild wheel new hub and cx sapim blade spokes... I agreed to this to see what costs would be but also to give me time to check where I stand.

Turns out the lbs want a further £110 or so on top of the £65 I've already paid, and the hub replacement isn't a like for like replacement being a Bitex hub instead of a dt Swiss hub. Way too much to swallow for what should have been a simple enough job.

Do I have any recourse legally or otherwise?

timothyw

They've been pretty cheeky, to put it delicately.

To what extent are you dependent on this LBS, and to what extent (up until now) do you trust them IE do you have a relationship that it is worth preserving?

Honestly though, from what you've described, they should be supplying the new hub and spokes at cost price (what with it being their mistakes), which unless my sums are way off, they are not doing - they're adding a decent margin on top.

cycleclinic

This is why I never quote the cost of a job and if I do I give a bunch of caveats. Simply there maybe scoring on the hub and the hub may need replacing. It would have been better if this had been spotted first but it was not. the replies above are based on your version of events only. you the OP have not seen inside the hub. Another LBS may give you the same diagnosis but maybe you will get a different one. The problem with posting here none of us not even you the OP has examined the hubs. saying it was working except for the rough bearings does not tell us about any other problems hidden in the hub.

What we dont know is if the damage to the hub shell was present before you took the wheel in or the hub was damaged while the wheel was at the shop. Form reading your post the shop seems to be claiming the damage was there prior to you taking it in. given we have no evidence to the contary as you did not inspect the hub before hand and having a free running freehub is not evidence (I have seen stranger things) then I dont see any other way of beleiving the LBS.

A bitex rear hub is £70 so £110 for rebuilding the wheel is not too steep. new spokes will be needed though I dont know if they have priced those in.

twotoebenny

The Price is for Bitex hub (are these any good?) at cost and sapim blade spokes at retail as only 24 required. (They don't want to buy a box full as they don't use them)
Clinic what you have said is right, no inspection of hub shell by either party. The shop held their hands up and said the made a mistake in this. I can see where you're coming from, but given no evidence to contrary it could also have been ok and from my part the wheel was working (Bearings aside) before it went into the shop hence my post.

timothyw

thecycleclinic wrote:

A bitex rear hub is £70 so £110 for rebuilding the wheel is not too steep. new spokes will be needed though I dont know if they have priced those in.

But that isn't what they're charging - he's saying they want £110 in addition to the £65 already paid.

So lets charitably say they're paying £2.50 a spoke - that's £60 of spokes, plus £70 of hub (which includes retailer margin, so they are making some money on that) and you're only up to £130 - what's the extra £45 for?

I would imagine you might rebuild the wheel and supply those parts for £175 Malcolm, wouldn't you?

Even if you wouldn't, there's plenty of wheelbuilders who would.

So where are they making a sacrifice to show good faith for having mucked him about?

twotoebenny

This is the info they sent me...

I haven’t built on them for some time but they cost around £70 trade if I recall correctly. Sapim CX Ray spokes are £3 a pop in black, and unless we had the correct size in stock we’d be buying them at retail (because the alternative is to buy a bag and be left with loads of spokes). There are 24 spokes in the wheel so that’s £72. This takes us to £142 in parts. The cost of building a wheel at retail is £50. If we reduce that to £30, the total cost of the rebuild is £172. You can then deduct from that what you have already spent because we can’t charge you for a repair that hasn’t been possible to use and that takes you back down to around £110, give or take.

£110 for a new hub and spokes built onto this rim represents an extraordinarily bad day at the office for us particularly when considering the time put into the job already, and our firm stance that the damage on the hub was pre-existing, but it hopefully makes clear our desire to act with decency and integrity. Had our workshop noticed the damage up front, we wouldn’t be in this position, but we are where we are and now we just need to work to resolve it so no-one leaves with too sour a taste in their mouth.

joey54321

Any way of going back to ffwd? Is the LBS a registered ffwd dealer?

"Form reading your post the shop seems to be claiming the damage was there prior to you taking it in. given we have no evidence to the contary as you did not inspect the hub before hand and having a free running freehub is not evidence (I have seen stranger things) then I dont see any other way of beleiving the LBS. " - None the less, even if it was damaged when the OP handed it in he gave in a working wheel and received a non-working wheel. That's not right in my book.

twotoebenny

I've contacted ffwd, both to confirm ft Swiss hub type and also the do a crash replacement which may be a better way of spending my money although I'm not keen on spending!!!

cycleclinic

as I have tried to point out while they did not spot the damage to the hub shell initally they are assuming fairly I would add that the damage was there already. you may dispute this but I have to say there is no evidence to the contary.

There parts prices are what they are. I know how much I buy CX-rays for from chcickens cycles and it is not £2.60. I buy alot of spokes and get big discounts though. The shop maybe buying them of chainreaction for we know. the job has to return a profit. £165 for hub, spokes and labour is not too bad. You may not like the result but you are also expecting the shop to suck up a loss for a hub sheel problem they do not appear to have caused (not sure how it would have happened but removing a freehub to replace bearings would not damage the shell.

We dont even know what the actual problem is. we have to assume the shops diagnosis is correct you are asking for advise but since you are not doing the work and have not inspected the hub we have nothing to go on.

I would not name and shame. I find that tatic on here distasteful.

twotoebenny

I'm not disagreeing, I did mention I was loathe to post and looking for some feedback. I also won't name and shame as to an extent I think they have tried their best to help.

However It's difficult to swallow a fairly expensive wheel coming back not working...

timothyw

Yeah. I mean, honestly I would expect better if this was a shop that I had built up a relationship with, but for a shop that you've never really spent any money at this might be the best you can get (as you're unlikely to get it any cheaper taking your wheel elsewhere), although I'd hesitate to get them to do the work unless I was fairly convinced of their wheel-building credentials.

As Malcolm has hinted though, some of their part prices are a bit on the high side even for retail - just riding along will do anyone black cx-ray spokes for £2.45 for example - http://www.justridingalong.com/sapim-cx-ray-black.html

twotoebenny

I've had a few things done over a number of years, but they are DT Swiss specialists which is why o took the wheel there. I tend to do what I can myself.

Thanks for link will help reduce costs if I go down that route...

Anybody tell me how good a bitex hub is?

Ben6899

TwoToeBenny wrote:

I've had a few things done over a number of years, but they are DT Swiss specialists which is why o took the wheel there. I tend to do what I can myself.

Thanks for link will help reduce costs if I go down that route...

Anybody tell me how good a bitex hub is?

Can they not get hold of a DT Swiss hub, if they're DT Swiss specialists? Can't help you on the Bitex assessment front, sorry.

twotoebenny

Again, this was info they sent...

There is no availability of a DT Swiss 350 hub in 24 hole drilling for rim brake/road bike. This would suggest the hub currently in use is what we refer to as an OEM hub, where it has been manufactured/supplied to FFWD specifically for their wheelset and is not available as an individual after market hub.

Quick search on wiggle shows a 24 hole 350... doesn't help with my confidence in lbs

paul_onabike

I think were getting a bit bogged down with the details on this.

You are entitled to your wheel repaired to to condition you expected it would be returned to you, following the initial repair- as you were given a binding quote.

If there was a problem with the hub, or a change in the cost of the work that was to be carried out - then that should have been negotiated before start of the repair- though you could have have enforced your rights, and asked them to carry out the work for the quoted price.

If the LBS are unwilling/unable to return the repaired wheel to you in a useable condition for no extra charge, then you can pass the work on to someone who can repair the wheel, at reasonable cost, and claim the cost back from the LBS. Though you may need to go through the county court to get it.

It would best to try and reach some sort mutually agreeable terms for the repair, but you certainly should not be paying more than a token amount towards the cost.

ugo.santalucia

THey took up a job they should not have touched with a barge pole. Changing bearings is always fiddly and can lead to a damaged hub... I would not bother to do it on a pair of wheels purchased on Wiggle, unless the customer agrees to take responsibility in case the hub gets damaged.

To be honest it is a bit cheeky to buy wheels on the internet at a low price and then ask the LBS to fix them... they should have sent you to Wiggle for that. In my books when you buy online (and I do) you are on your own. I totally sympathize with shops that don't want to service stuff they do not sell...

Garry H

ugo.santalucia wrote:

THey took up a job they should not have touched with a barge pole. Changing bearings is always fiddly and can lead to a damaged hub... I would not bother to do it on a pair of wheels purchased on Wiggle, unless the customer agrees to take responsibility in case the hub gets damaged.

To be honest it is a bit cheeky to buy wheels on the internet at a low price and then ask the LBS to fix them... they should have sent you to Wiggle for that. In my books when you buy online (and I do) you are on your own. I totally sympathize with shops that don't want to service stuff they do not sell...

What about shops that specialise in repairs and don't sell bikes?

ugo.santalucia

Garry H wrote:

What about shops that specialise in repairs and don't sell bikes?

They've all gone bust a long time ago.

As you know, I used to build wheels and I did the odd repair on things I had not built. Replacing spokes, rims etc is risk free. However, There were fiddly jobs, which I either didn't take or I warned there was a risk involved. Replacing bearings on some hubs can be problematic, especially very light hubs or whenever the bearing has corroded and it is stuck in the shell.

Anyway, in the specific, they took up the job, so now they have to sort the customer out

Garry H

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Garry H wrote:

What about shops that specialise in repairs and don't sell bikes?

They've all gone bust a long time ago.

As you know, I used to build wheels and I did the odd repair on things I had not built. Replacing spokes, rims etc is risk free. However, There were fiddly jobs, which I either didn't take or I warned there was a risk involved. Replacing bearings on some hubs can be problematic, especially very light hubs or whenever the bearing has corroded and it is stuck in the shell.

Anyway, in the specific, they took up the job, so now they have to sort the customer out

Not the one I use

I have a pair of Hope Hubs that will need new rims and spokes quite soon. Take it you no longer offer your services then?

ugo.santalucia

Garry H wrote:

I have a pair of Hope Hubs that will need new rims and spokes quite soon. Take it you no longer offer your services then?

Not unless you come to pick them up in Birmingham...
Deliveries were always a mega hassle

Garry H

Unlikely

twotoebenny

To be honest it is a bit cheeky to buy wheels on the internet at a low price and then ask the LBS to fix them... they should have sent you to Wiggle for that. In my books when you buy online (and I do) you are on your own. I totally sympathize with shops that don't want to service stuff they do not sell...

Ugo, I didn't buy them cheaply I paid full price for them two years ago, I also had you build me a set around the same time!

Garry H

TwoToeBenny wrote:

To be honest it is a bit cheeky to buy wheels on the internet at a low price and then ask the LBS to fix them... they should have sent you to Wiggle for that. In my books when you buy online (and I do) you are on your own. I totally sympathize with shops that don't want to service stuff they do not sell...

Ugo, I didn't buy them cheaply I paid full price for them two years ago, I also had you build me a set around the same time!

I disagree. If they only offered to service or fix stuff they had sold, they'd all go out of business.

ugo.santalucia

TwoToeBenny wrote:

Ugo, I didn't buy them cheaply I paid full price for them two years ago, I also had you build me a set around the same time!

See? I would have probably been reluctant to change the bearings on the FFWW ones...

Honestly, I think a shop should think twice before carrying out these jobs, they've got more to lose than to gain. I am also surprised they only asked for 65 quid to replace bearings and freehub... that sounds like hardly paid for the spare parts.
Since they took up the job, they will have to come to a reasonable solution... a rebuild seems a poor option on a factory wheelset.
I wouldn't be so negative about the bodge job... if it works, what's wrong with it? My bikes are in essence Frankenbikes, where things are made to work together. You might be better off with a shim than with a poor rebuild.

jgsi

I also have FFWD6Rs ..4 years old now but still in top nick as they are not my day to day wheels in any shape or form.
They have taken many a battering though ,at speed via pothole hits whilst in the bunch.
I registered them with FFWD at time of purchase.. I thought FFWD took it upon themselves to 'maintain' wheels .. obviously at a cost, but at least , they know what the heck they are doing.

Ben6899

Garry H wrote:

Unlikely

Where are you based, Garry?

Garry H

Scottish Borders

nickcuk

ugo.santalucia wrote:

THey took up a job they should not have touched with a barge pole. Changing bearings is always fiddly and can lead to a damaged hub... I would not bother to do it on a pair of wheels purchased on Wiggle, unless the customer agrees to take responsibility in case the hub gets damaged.

To be honest it is a bit cheeky to buy wheels on the internet at a low price and then ask the LBS to fix them... they should have sent you to Wiggle for that. In my books when you buy online (and I do) you are on your own. I totally sympathize with shops that don't want to service stuff they do not sell...

100% agree with this