riding around groups etiquette

awavey

this feels like a very newbie question, and it may be something totally specific to routed events like sportives and so on where you are all following the same route, so you cant just take the next turn away, and it probably all boils down to drafting etiquette really.

but Im curious what are peoples views if you as a lone rider manage to catch a group of riders on the same route, who are obviously slow enough overall at that stage for whatever reason for you to have caught them up, but quick enough still you wont exactly power zoom straight past them that easily, be that because you believe they can up the pace if they feel the need for speed, or the roads too narrow, or too busy with vehicles to safely get you past.

its just on a couple of rides recently Ive been in this position, and then got stuck not knowing what to do and just end up pacing myself 4-5 bike lengths off the back of the group, which is fine and its not that anyones complained to me doing that, actually the only time anyone has verbally moaned at me is when I overtook them as they near ground to a halt on a hill and then seemed to take great delight in shouting at me as they overtook me again further up the road because Id stopped for a traffic light :roll: which equally puts you off more trying to get past people.

but then the last rider of the group inevitably spots me hanging out the back and then starts passing on the group hand signals,voice calls at junctions, like I know what any of that stuff means anyway, but then I worry that they feel Im intruding on the group and just drafting them but not doing my bit to help, which Im not IMO at least trying to.

slowmart

Just say hi and ask if it's ok to join the group as most riders are fine if you're polite and sociable.

Just ride safely and well within your limits whilst in a group of riders of unknown abilities.

svetty

>1000 posts and you're asking this question now??

Sounds like you're not the type to ride sociably in a club or group or you'd have done so by now - which is fair enough. In which case either ride past at a speed which enables you to get past and up the road, or hang back as you've suggested.

ThatBikeGuy

I will usually tag onto the back of a group if they are going at a similar pace to myself. Talk to a rider asking where they are heading to etc.
Most are okay to have an extra person so long as you do your fair share of work on the front rather than just sitting at the back.
Depends how comfortable you are riding in a group, perhaps don't join in if you aren't familiar with callouts/hand signals as you might end up causing an accident.

rick_chasey

If they're a bit slower, you can help contribute to the pace.

Main things are pass on the right, call out any obstacles that the guy behind can't see (potholes & parked cars mainly), and do any slowing down gradually and obviously; this usually involves saying loud enough they can hear that you're slowing.

Otherwise, just get on with it, you'll learn.

awavey

I did say it felt like a newbie question :oops: the reason it hasnt come up before, is probably that Ive only started doing morning weekend rides since the beginning of this summer, because its cooler, and with less traffic on the roads, who knew but conversely more cyclists and more in groups, doing the same thing for the same reasons, and Ive probably hit a reasonable level of speed/fitness that means Im more than capable of keeping to their normal group ride pace anyway if I was part of the group, its just when they slacken off and like for the last one I think one of their group had a mechanical/call of nature, so they started to soft pedal to allow him to catch them up, it just meant I caught them up as well.

now I know if I wanted to tag onto the group, a cheery hello, offer to take a turn, be safe and sensible no overlapping would be perfectly ok, what Im saying is I havent quite found my group riding mojo yet, maybe the more it happens the more I will get it, but Im still quite happy soloing around at the moment, so Im trying to hang back enough so as not to be just one of those freeloading interlopers tagging onto the group, its just not been working that successfully as however reasonable a gap I leave, they still seem to see me as part of having joined the group and have even dropped back to check I was doing ok, at which point you think oh god have they now slowed down just to let me keep up...see its alot simpler riding by yourself head down ride

I just wondered what peoples view of when you are in a group ride and others like me turn up on the road, trying their hardest not to join up, is it just any other rider in that position automatically becomes part of the group, and Im just wasting my time being antisocial about it

Neil Grubb

I don't really understand the problem here - it sounds to me as if you're a bit self-conscious around other cyclists and there is no need to be. You need to make your mind up whether you want to ride with groups or not - it seems a bit silly to hang back a few bike lengths as you'll not get much drafting benefit anyway. If you want to ride solo and find yourself catching up with a group, go past them - if they overtake you later on, no big deal! I'd recommend trying group riding - I found once I'd got over my apprehension about riding with my local club as a newbie this January, I haven't looked back. I still enjoy solo rides too but I love the Sunday club rides.

Frank Wilson

I've never caught anyone yet!!

MiddleRinger

In any club rides I've been part of, if we catch a rider or a rider catches us we always say a cheery hello and ask if they want to join in if they're going a similar route. Some will, while others will politely decline and do their own thing. Don't just tag on the back without saying anything. Hang a few bike lengths back if you will but it's usually better to have a chat. Same has happened whenever I've been out solo and caught or been caught by a group.

Say hi, ask where they're riding to, be friendly. Riding in a group is one of the joys of cycling!

Moonbiker

Hold back rest legs judge there pace/form or lack of for awhile from a safe distance, then drop them fast. :roll:

axisofweasel

I would say get a handle on group signals and etiquette before doing anything so you're not THAT dude. Then I'd probably be happy just rolling up to the group and asking if I can sit on or jump into the rotations.

Biggest issue we have is people joining then blowing the group to pieces before falling back out the group again.

Be friendly polite and safe and it'll all be fine!!

darkhairedlord

I would just try to incorporate a few full stops and not worry about it.

burnthesheep

You were in the right. If a group passes back due to a stoplight, that's just how it goes. No reason for them to be angry that their paceline is slower than you riding alone.

I had a guy last night who I guess picked the wrong 3 people to paceline with on his group ride. I come up on this group and pass them (I'm riding alone, no group). I get about 1/4 mile ahead for a mile or two. I stop to decide if I want to take the gravel road route or the left onto the road and decide to let them roll on by so I don't annoy them. I totally left the road so they can pass.

One dude that was in that group abandons the two he was pacing with and decides to start playing leapfrog on purpose with me whenever there was a hill. He weighed about 25lb less but I probably had about 30 watts more. So he'd fly up the hill past, then I'd catch on a flat. This continued for about 3 miles until he couldn't drop me at a stoplight, that he ran red but I stopped for, and then I passed at the next light on the downhill.

Meanwhile, I'm just doing my route watching this dude do this. While his 2 mates he left I passed again. Once I passed them, he never bothered to rejoin them. Total WTF moment.

I don't care how slow or fast you are. If I'm riding alone, I will ride alone. I want to stay out of your way, and wouldn't mind if you did the same for me.

I didn't change my pace or strategy for my alone ride at all, and tried to let them go. It wasn't time for my banana break so I wasn't going to sit for 5 minutes to generate a huge gap.

Frank Wilson

darkhairedlord wrote:

I would just try to incorporate a few full stops and not worry about it.

I like it!

Schoie81

Hi Awavey,

I have had this too - not often, (because I don't see that many groups..) but definitely remember it happening a few times. If you've caught a group up, then clearly you're going quicker than them. Whether that's because you're just generally quicker than them, or just cos they've eased off for a bit on their ride doesn't really matter. If I've caught them quite quickly, I'll just go past and say hello as I pass, and carry on. If they pass me again later down the road, so what?? I'm not racing them, I'm just doing my own thing at my own pace and at the time I caught them, I was quicker, so I passed them...

If you catch them slowly and so you're not going that much quicker, then maybe hang back a bit to have a bit of a rest, then put a bit of effort in to get past them quickly - just so you're passing them quickly and safely. Obviously then you need to pull away from them a bit, because if you pass a group, pull in front of them and then slow down, then I can understand them getting annoyed with you.

I'm not much of a fan of group riding, so I wouldn't join a group, either by asking them or if they invite me to. I've only actually ever had one invite from another cyclist, when a guy passed me quite easily going up a hill and he asked if I wanted to jump on. I politely declined - I was happy churning away on my own - but was nice that he offered!!

Generally, I think you're worrying too much. Just try not to affect their group ride and carry on doing your own thing!!

milemuncher1

From my point of view, it's good to let the folk you're approaching to know you are there. If they are doing 'intervals' and are in a slow section, or regrouping they probably really don't mind if you go on your merry way, but make sure they are aware you are there, as there's nothing more irritating, from the group's point of view, then having a quiet rider suddenly appear from a blind spot, just as they pick up the pace. Again, speaking personally, if you are on a different type of ride, and are really going to go past, quickly, and then dissapear into the wild blue yonder, then get on with it. Don't make a 20 second big effort to pass the group, then not continue to crack on. There's nothing more irritating than having a 'hero effort' from someone, only to then have them actually not be going quickly enough, sustainably, to justify the pass, mainly because then the group will want to crack on, and will have to get the whole group, past the 'hero dawdler' and there's a safety concern there. As you approach the group, you will get a 30 odd percent aero advantage, once past, you won't, a lot of less experienced riders get surprised, by just how different, approaching in a draft, and then not having the draft feels. So, let them know you're there and pass quickly, and keep going, or let them know you're there, and stay with them, use the draft advantage as a 'rest', and they will nearly always either, eventually up their pace, and disappear, or go somewhere you won't be.

kingrollo

Surely it depends on the group ? - are we making the assumption that all groups do through and off ? - none of the clubs Ive ever road with do - but I am mostly a sub 15 mph cyclist !!!

Brakeless

Milemuncher1 wrote:

From my point of view, it's good to let the folk you're approaching to know you are there. If they are doing 'intervals' and are in a slow section, or regrouping they probably really don't mind if you go on your merry way, but make sure they are aware you are there, as there's nothing more irritating, from the group's point of view, then having a quiet rider suddenly appear from a blind spot, just as they pick up the pace. Again, speaking personally, if you are on a different type of ride, and are really going to go past, quickly, and then dissapear into the wild blue yonder, then get on with it. Don't make a 20 second big effort to pass the group, then not continue to crack on. There's nothing more irritating than having a 'hero effort' from someone, only to then have them actually not be going quickly enough, sustainably, to justify the pass, mainly because then the group will want to crack on, and will have to get the whole group, past the 'hero dawdler' and there's a safety concern there. As you approach the group, you will get a 30 odd percent aero advantage, once past, you won't, a lot of less experienced riders get surprised, by just how different, approaching in a draft, and then not having the draft feels. So, let them know you're there and pass quickly, and keep going, or let them know you're there, and stay with them, use the draft advantage as a 'rest', and they will nearly always either, eventually up their pace, and disappear, or go somewhere you won't be.

Groups doing Intervals. That's gonna work well.

webboo

I once went past a group during one of my interval sessions only for my pump to fall out of my pocket as I went past. I felt a bit of a t*t as I had to stop and pick it up.

imposter2.0

Brakeless wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

From my point of view, it's good to let the folk you're approaching to know you are there. If they are doing 'intervals' and are in a slow section, or regrouping they probably really don't mind if you go on your merry way, but make sure they are aware you are there, as there's nothing more irritating, from the group's point of view, then having a quiet rider suddenly appear from a blind spot, just as they pick up the pace. Again, speaking personally, if you are on a different type of ride, and are really going to go past, quickly, and then dissapear into the wild blue yonder, then get on with it. Don't make a 20 second big effort to pass the group, then not continue to crack on. There's nothing more irritating than having a 'hero effort' from someone, only to then have them actually not be going quickly enough, sustainably, to justify the pass, mainly because then the group will want to crack on, and will have to get the whole group, past the 'hero dawdler' and there's a safety concern there. As you approach the group, you will get a 30 odd percent aero advantage, once past, you won't, a lot of less experienced riders get surprised, by just how different, approaching in a draft, and then not having the draft feels. So, let them know you're there and pass quickly, and keep going, or let them know you're there, and stay with them, use the draft advantage as a 'rest', and they will nearly always either, eventually up their pace, and disappear, or go somewhere you won't be.

Groups doing Intervals. That's gonna work well.

milemuncher1

kingrollo wrote:

Surely it depends on the group ? - are we making the assumption that all groups do through and off ? - none of the clubs Ive ever road with do - but I am mostly a sub 15 mph cyclist !!!

Very much so. You'll soon work out what sort of group you're approaching, make a judgement call, and take the appropriate course of action, based on the circumstances.

burnthesheep

Imposter wrote:

Brakeless wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

From my point of view, it's good to let the folk you're approaching to know you are there. If they are doing 'intervals' and are in a slow section, or regrouping they probably really don't mind if you go on your merry way, but make sure they are aware you are there, as there's nothing more irritating, from the group's point of view, then having a quiet rider suddenly appear from a blind spot, just as they pick up the pace. Again, speaking personally, if you are on a different type of ride, and are really going to go past, quickly, and then dissapear into the wild blue yonder, then get on with it. Don't make a 20 second big effort to pass the group, then not continue to crack on. There's nothing more irritating than having a 'hero effort' from someone, only to then have them actually not be going quickly enough, sustainably, to justify the pass, mainly because then the group will want to crack on, and will have to get the whole group, past the 'hero dawdler' and there's a safety concern there. As you approach the group, you will get a 30 odd percent aero advantage, once past, you won't, a lot of less experienced riders get surprised, by just how different, approaching in a draft, and then not having the draft feels. So, let them know you're there and pass quickly, and keep going, or let them know you're there, and stay with them, use the draft advantage as a 'rest', and they will nearly always either, eventually up their pace, and disappear, or go somewhere you won't be.

Groups doing Intervals. That's gonna work well.

You kind of are if the group is smaller and an A+ pace. If your turn is 2 to 3 minutes at 300w, yeah, that's an interval. Especially since you know you're only going to get like 6 minutes rest then do it again.

But if it's a B group at 18mph with 20 people. Yeah, that's not going to happen. On a B group ride I did I took 3 turns and maybe got 2 min at 200w once. And we were promptly told to slow the roll even at that. It was a recovery ride otherwise for 90 minutes.

singleton

As you draw up to them, shout out loudly something like "faster riding coming past" and then attack hard...

milemuncher1

burnthesheep wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Brakeless wrote:

Milemuncher1 wrote:

From my point of view, it's good to let the folk you're approaching to know you are there. If they are doing 'intervals' and are in a slow section, or regrouping they probably really don't mind if you go on your merry way, but make sure they are aware you are there, as there's nothing more irritating, from the group's point of view, then having a quiet rider suddenly appear from a blind spot, just as they pick up the pace. Again, speaking personally, if you are on a different type of ride, and are really going to go past, quickly, and then dissapear into the wild blue yonder, then get on with it. Don't make a 20 second big effort to pass the group, then not continue to crack on. There's nothing more irritating than having a 'hero effort' from someone, only to then have them actually not be going quickly enough, sustainably, to justify the pass, mainly because then the group will want to crack on, and will have to get the whole group, past the 'hero dawdler' and there's a safety concern there. As you approach the group, you will get a 30 odd percent aero advantage, once past, you won't, a lot of less experienced riders get surprised, by just how different, approaching in a draft, and then not having the draft feels. So, let them know you're there and pass quickly, and keep going, or let them know you're there, and stay with them, use the draft advantage as a 'rest', and they will nearly always either, eventually up their pace, and disappear, or go somewhere you won't be.

Groups doing Intervals. That's gonna work well.

You kind of are if the group is smaller and an A+ pace. If your turn is 2 to 3 minutes at 300w, yeah, that's an interval. Especially since you know you're only going to get like 6 minutes rest then do it again.

But if it's a B group at 18mph with 20 people. Yeah, that's not going to happen. On a B group ride I did I took 3 turns and maybe got 2 min at 200w once. And we were promptly told to slow the roll even at that. It was a recovery ride otherwise for 90 minutes.

Pretty much my experience too.

Mark Alexander

On the ever-inincreasingly rare occasion that I do ride up behind a group of cyclists, I have no worries about joining, using or passing them.
if you think about joining, ask the riders at the back if they object, have a chat. They have never said no before but don't forget to do your turn even if it is a short one to show willing. The same goes for using a group for a rest, make it known that you're going to sit at the back then, when you are ready to press on or they take a different route, be sure to wish them well and thanks for the lift! If you're just passing, do it safely, say hi, don't be cheeky and smug. call out that you're passing on the outside as they may not realise that you are there. If as mentioned earlier, they are doing intervals or a chain gang, you'll soon know about it.

The rule of thumb is be polite, respectful and communicate.

imposter2.0

burnthesheep wrote:

You kind of are if the group is smaller and an A+ pace. If your turn is 2 to 3 minutes at 300w, yeah, that's an interval. Especially since you know you're only going to get like 6 minutes rest then do it again.

That's effectively an individual interval (of sorts) within a group setting - not a group interval as such. The group isn't doing the interval and so the group's speed remains unaffected.

burnthesheep

Imposter wrote:

burnthesheep wrote:

You kind of are if the group is smaller and an A+ pace. If your turn is 2 to 3 minutes at 300w, yeah, that's an interval. Especially since you know you're only going to get like 6 minutes rest then do it again.

That's effectively an individual interval (of sorts) within a group setting - not a group interval as such. The group isn't doing the interval and so the group's speed remains unaffected.

This may be a silly question, but wouldn't that mean the group wouldn't be in a pace-line? Otherwise different people in the group will have different outputs for the interval.

In other words, how would a group interval work? You'd have to be spread out fairly far.

keef66

The only time I ever catch anyone is if my 25 mile solo ride blunders into the tail end of a 100 mile sportive, and then they are usually too knackered to object.

I've given up riding sportives because it got too demoralising spending an entire day being overtaken. That and the dickheads who think they are racing, but don't have the bike handling skill or awareness / anticipation to go with it.
I can make myself a litre of lukewarm energy drink and grab a handful of fig rolls, and still have a lot of change from the £40 some of these things cost to enter. I think it's become a bit of a racket TBH

darkhairedlord

Singleton wrote:

As you draw up to them, shout out loudly something like "faster riding coming past" and then attack hard...

Then turn left straight afterwards.

imposter2.0

burnthesheep wrote:

Imposter wrote:

burnthesheep wrote:

You kind of are if the group is smaller and an A+ pace. If your turn is 2 to 3 minutes at 300w, yeah, that's an interval. Especially since you know you're only going to get like 6 minutes rest then do it again.

That's effectively an individual interval (of sorts) within a group setting - not a group interval as such. The group isn't doing the interval and so the group's speed remains unaffected.

This may be a silly question, but wouldn't that mean the group wouldn't be in a pace-line? Otherwise different people in the group will have different outputs for the interval.

In other words, how would a group interval work? You'd have to be spread out fairly far.

Indeed - the point I'm making is that I've never heard of anyone doing structured intervals in a group setting, while keeping a group formation, for the reasons you mention. In other words, I don't see how a 'group interval' could ever work safely or successfully. I would just ignore the term - it's just more BS from milemuncher. In fact, I don't think the term even existed before milemuncher made it up.

milemuncher1

darkhairedlord wrote:

Singleton wrote:

As you draw up to them, shout out loudly something like "faster riding coming past" and then attack hard...

Then turn left straight afterwards.

But make sure you shout "on your right" then pass on the left, for maximum effect.